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Thread: *Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

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    Smile *Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

    Hidey Ho Neighboureenos. 1I here.

    Wasn't that a sweet thread we had going over there at the Secular Cafe? Well, after a much deserved break, I'm back to help you learn how to be a Christian.

    Now tell me, what is it again that prevents you from believing zis Holy Bible? I will try to help you see it my way, and I trust you will do the same. Let's be respectful though, ya?

    Now, as promised, I will continue to answer your questions from the past as best as I can. Looking back to the archives, I see I owe an answer to our good friend DMB who said the following:

    You do seem to me to indulge in circular reasoning: the bible is history because it is the voice of God; we know about God because of the bible. So Noah is really unbelievable, but because God can do anything it could have happened. But that is hardly evidence for Noah or for God.

    Stop there. Okay. The bible is the bible. It's in the hotel rooms - might have seen it. So there is your proof for the bible. And archeologists are continuing to confirm that what is written i there is historical fact. For instance - there was no other record of Pontius Pilate, other than the Bible, until the 1960s, when someone found it etched in some ancient Roman building. So there is a case of reality backing up the Bible. That's just one, but I will list some others, but let's move on.

    Yes, God can do anything, so all that unbelievable stuff could have happened. I see unbelievable stuff happening all the time. Flying around on this rock in space is pretty unbelievable, but we're doing it.

    There is great evidence for Noah. Didn't you watch that video I sent the link to? Ill resend it. Great evidence that the boat is the one they found on Ararat - just as the Bible says.

    Proof for God is right in front of your face. Look at the Grand design which is the Universe. That right there is proof of higher thinking. I didn't do all this. Did you? Did you? Did that mud puddle over there think it up? No, it was just a fluke, right. Well that fluke is about as probable as the Bible being real, right. I would say less so actually. I have no trouble believing in a God - what's so hard about that? The proof is all around us. Including the Bible, which explains exactly what is happening. And at the heart of it all, Jesus has instructed us to love our neighbours as ourselves, and to love God. That's it. Love and more love. What is so ominous about that.



    The bible is not straightforward history (inasmuch as there is ever any such a thing). It is primarily a set of religious stories and recommendations. How do you distinguish between the bible and the Arabian Nights, Grimm's fairy tales or Homer's Iliad? (The Iliad is also supposed to be history.) It is also a mistake to regard the bible as a single book or even two. It is a ragbag collection of books that owes its modern existence to decisions made by the church on what to include and what to exclude.

    Okay DMB. How Do I distinguish between those three? For one, by reading them and making up my mind for myself. Two, by looking around me. About one third of the world is Christian - but I don't see huge line ups for the Arabian Nights or Grimm's. I don't see anyone discussing those much either. But hey, start a thread - maybe I'll listen.

    As for being a rag tag collection of books - ya - i know. So what. It is what it is DMB. And yes, I know that the Church guys pruned it here and there. Isn't it great that we have the ancient manuscripts online that we can now see for ourselves. Doesn't mean the core message isn't true. Don't throw away your golden ticket because you think maybe you see a thread showing. Just redeem it.

    For all of you in DMB's situation: that you just don't believe because of this or that - how about you throw up this little prayer (Yes, I said prayer - a little internal dialogue if you will), and it goes a little something like this. "Uh, God, if you are real, and this whole thing about believing in Jesus, who promises to save us from death, if that's real - then can you just like add me to the list. I don't really believe it just yet, as you know *(God knows just where you're at anyhow as you may know), but I am open to seeing it differently, if this is the case. No, I don't want to miss the big party." So if you could get that far, maybe that would be considered enough of a 'knock' as far as God is concerned.

    "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." Mathew 7.7


    The question of the "sacrifice" of Jesus is really a completely separate topic, well worth its own discussion.

    Okely dokely, it's getting past my bedtime anyway, so that's good.

    Your parable of the ants betrays an apparent misunderstanding of atheism and agnosticism. Non-believers don't say "F U God"; they don't believe that there is a god to whom that can be addressed. It would be like saying "F U Santa Claus".

    My apologies. You are seemingly right.

    For someone who does not believe in the existence of God (I give him a capital G so we know we mean that particular god a opposed to the thousands of others such as Thor, Baal, Osiris, Poseidon, Huitzilopochtli...) there is no question of rejecting a supposed sacrifice by him. We don't believe the sacrifice happened either. There may well have been someone named the Aramaic equivalent of Jesus who was crucified by the Romans -- the Romans did a lot of that -- but we see no reason to believe that his death was a divine sacrifice.

    Now this is the part that you need to believe it. It was a design sacrifice. This is the gift that was given to us by God via Jesus. Weird, I know. No, I can't explain it. Did it happen. Apparently, it did. No air tight proof going either way, but that is where you just got to believe I guess. I'm going with it. Is it wishful thinking *as a Hermit once asked? Hell ya. Wishful as you can get. What a dream heaven would be. It actually seems impossible, but if God can create this shithole reality (that's a joke, kinda, son), then maybe he can whip up something just a bit more appetizing. I think he can. He has promised he would, in a little book called the Bible, which we are discussing to this day right here, a book that I think becomes more and more evidently true as time goes on.


    I am by no means suggesting that the bible is a lot of deliberate lies or that nothing it recounts could be true, but it really isn't the sort of thing that nowadays we would classify as history.

    There is a problem that so much in the bible is without alternative sources or supporting evidence.

    Consider the present-day difficulty of disentangling truth, lies and exaggeration, even with modern communications technology. There is Fox News and there is CNN. They often produce conflicting accounts of what is going on now. For example, as a result of watching a late-night Fox News programme and then misunderstanding what he had listened to, Donald Trump amazed Swedes the other day by claiming a non-existent terrorist attack in Sweden. How much more difficult it is to work out what was happening in Palestine 2000 years ago.

    Take the stories around the birth of Jesus. Most theologians I have come across think that the biblical accounts about Jesus's birth are fiction, added to the story so as to be able to claim a fulfilled prophecy. If there was a real Jesus, he is usually referred to as "Jesus of Nazareth" so he came from Nazareth. He wasn't born in Bethlehem. There is no supporting evidence of the Roman requirement for the Jesus family to go to Bethlehem to be taxed. It wasn't the sort of thing the Romans did. But there was this verse in Micah:
    But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
    And so Matthew has the wise men tell Herod:
    And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

    And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
    It is fairly clear that that is added to the story to make sure that Jesus did conform to what was seen as a prophecy.

    As with the crucifixion, the gospels don't even agree with one another on what happened around the birth of Jesus.


    Well, that's all I can answer to this one for now. But in a nutshell - don't throw out the Baby Jesus (and your chance at Salvation) based on a couple of typos - ie. little details that you think out to be a bit different. Full points though for your biblical knowledge. You obviously have looked into the matter. I am comforted by the fact that God knows exactly where you, DMB, and where we all are exactly with our thoughts and knowledge in the matter. I trust too that he is infinitely more compassionate, wise, forgiving and fair, then we could ever hope to be - so let's just trust God's judgement. Every little thing is going to be alright.

    BTW: If not Christian, have you found another way out of here?

    I would just add that, in the end, we are not going to prove this sucker either way - . Because God is entirely beyond our human comprehension, so is the whole matter. You just have to either choose to believe it, or not believe it. I chose yes.

    Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.


    Without Cost! Without Cost! It truly is without cost. Do you thirst for it? I know I do.

    Peace and love to you all

    1ICrying

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    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    I don't understand what this thread is about.

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    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
    Now tell me, what is it again that prevents you from believing zis Holy Bible? I will try to help you see it my way, and I trust you will do the same. Let's be respectful though, ya?
    I'd be willing to try mutually respectful, but then you state this:

    And archeologists are continuing to confirm that what is written i there is historical fact. For instance - there was no other record of Pontius Pilate, other than the Bible, until the 1960s, when someone found it etched in some ancient Roman building. So there is a case of reality backing up the Bible. That's just one, but I will list some others, but let's move on.
    ...and I cannot find a respectful way to fully convey my feelings at the incredibly low threshold you have for 'evidence.' One biblical character was real, therefore the Books is confirmed as history?
    Wow.

    But, hey, there's your answer. I cannot find the Bible to be compelling as a historical document when its defenders have to reach so very hard for support. Plus, you know, talking snakes, unicorns, plants and insects not being alive, 42 kids tared up by bears for teasing a prophet... Crazy shit like that.

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    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    So, if I’m reading your post correctly: Can’t know what’s out there, but here’s a book that has a few things I like so I’ll believe the whole thing ithout question because I hate this life and want a better one and this book promises me that without proof?


    Seems like a pretty heavy cost right there - throwing away the only life you know you have for the hope of a different one based on a book. Indeed, I can think of no higher cost and no punishment more severe - the loss of your only life.

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    "If not Christian, have you found another way out of here?"

    Out of here???

    No, I'm not looking for a way out of here. The sort of "salvation" I'll get behind would involve overcoming our culture's worst disease -- the notion of how nature's only the background scenery to the human drama. Theism's either part of the cause or one of the worst side-effects of that.

    The things you claim are true, the values you present as good, are not only ludicrous but horrific.

    "Nuts, Christians and/or both"...


    Answer: the OP is both.

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    Go to your Bible and come back with the answer to "Who was Jesus' grandfather?" (or, to split hairs with the incarnationists, "Who was Joseph's daddy?")

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    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    Stop there. Okay. The bible is the bible. It's in the hotel rooms - might have seen it. So there is your proof for the bible. And archeologists are continuing to confirm that what is written i there is historical fact. For instance - there was no other record of Pontius Pilate, other than the Bible, until the 1960s, when someone found it etched in some ancient Roman building. So there is a case of reality backing up the Bible. That's just one, but I will list some others, but let's move on.
    Based on this kind of logic since we have ample proof that Mount Olympus exists it must be true that Zeus and the rest of the gang are up there doing their thing. After all, this is a case of reality backing up Greek mythology.

    You're also incorrect when you claim that the first extra-biblical reference to Pilate was found in "the 1960's." It really weakens your credibility (not that you start with much on your first post) when you start off with completely inaccurate claims like this. (Josephus and Philo both mention Pilate FWIW).

    BTW: If not Christian, have you found another way out of here?
    You mean apart from the thousands of other afterlife myths that have proliferated over centuries of human creativity? No thanks. Until something with even a modicum of evidence comes along I expect that the same oblivion I "experienced" during the billions of years before I was born waits for me after the electro-chemical activities of my brain cease permanently.

    Without cost!
    Well, except for
    • A few hours each week sitting in a room with other sheep getting brainwashed
    • At least 1/10 (feel free to give more) of your income
    • Whatever time you can give trying to convince others to believe this insanity
    • The cost of one's reason, buying into the whole bullshit story about an all-powerful god who created this incredible and vast universe yet is so codependent over how we act that he had to sacrifice himself to himself and then play the most epic game of hide and seek ever, while millions of his followers tell others that they can be forgiven for any infraction (including serial child rape/murder) if they'll just accept Jeebus into their heart but the one thing that they'll burn forever for is if they don't accept Jeezus into their heart. And symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood occasionally. Doesn't matter how you act, only matters what you think.
    • The personal remorse (assuming one comes to one's senses) that one wasted many of the good years of his or her life proliferating this bullshit on others.


    The list could go on for awhile, but it was very dishonest of whoever wrote the Revelation to put those "without cost" words into the imaginary mouth of their imaginary friend.

    Pass.

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    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post
    ... snip ...

    And symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood occasionally.

    ... snip ...
    It depends on which Christian sect. While most protestant sects practice symbolic cannibalism of their god during their eucharist, the official Roman Catholic Church accepts transubstantiation as a reality. So the RCC practices actual (by their accepted canon) cannibalism of their god as they believe the bread and wine is magically transformed (a miracle) into the actual blood and body of Jesus during the ritual of the eucharist.

    I find Christians embracing cannibalism (either real or symbolic) to be rather odd.
    Last edited by skepticalbip; 04-24-2019 at 06:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
    Hidey Ho Neighboureenos. 1I here.

    Wasn't that a sweet thread we had going over there at the Secular Cafe? Well, after a much deserved break, I'm back to help you learn how to be a Christian.
    No thanks. I am not interested in joining your cult.

    Now tell me, what is it again that prevents you from believing zis Holy Bible? I will try to help you see it my way, and I trust you will do the same. Let's be respectful though, ya?
    I will be respectful as long as you don't preach and you don't lie. And this post looks an awful lot like preaching.

    I don't believe the Bible because it is a collection of Bronze Age mythology that is unsupported by evidence. In fact, many of the Biblical claims are contradicted by our understanding of how reality works. For example, the Bible claims that humans were created by a god roughly 6,000 years ago, but science tells us this is not true. Life appeared on this planet perhaps as early as 3.5 BYA, and anatomically modern humans are descended from a long line of earlier hominids who first appeared in Africa about 6 MYA. That is just one example, and there are many more.

    Now, as promised, I will continue to answer your questions from the past as best as I can. Looking back to the archives, I see I owe an answer to our good friend DMB who said the following:
    Nobody here has asked you any questions that I know of, so I am not sure who you are responding to. Instead of doing the Gish gallop, I suggest you start a thread to discuss some particular topic and we can take it from there.


    BTW: If not Christian, have you found another way out of here?
    Out of where? Can't read your mind, you know.

    I would just add that, in the end, we are not going to prove this sucker either way - . Because God is entirely beyond our human comprehension, so is the whole matter. You just have to either choose to believe it, or not believe it. I chose yes.
    Thats nice. For me, it was never a choice. I grew up asking questions and Christianity and other religions did not have any answers. I don't believe the Bible claims because they are not credible. Unlike you, I am not able to turn off reason and rationality just because other people believe in Bronze Age nonsense.


    Without Cost! Without Cost! It truly is without cost. Do you thirst for it? I know I do.
    Nothing is free. In return for a little comfort you condemn yourself to a life of mental slavery, of bowing and scraping before an imaginary god, always fearful of what he may do to you. I am not a slave. I choose to accept the reality we live in and make the best of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I don't understand what this thread is about.
    I think he wants to tell us about his god. But he hasn't said anything remotely original yet - I think he is reading from a script.

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