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Thread: *Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

  1. Top | #281
    Senior Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    That is why I've never hidden my atheism, and have no problem standing up to Christians who are obnoxious.
    What about Christians who personally are friendly and caring, but their religious views are obnoxious and they are trying to impose them on others through government or even impose them on their own young impressionable and vulnerable children for example (through indoctrination)? At what point do you say something about their beliefs being harmful? Only as a last resort, or anytime earlier?

    I am not going to judge my Christian friends
    Anytime you form an opinion on a person or thing, you have formed a judgment of them/it. Your judgments can (and will) change, but we should not back from the word "judge" as if it is a scary concept itself. You can judge a person to be of good or bad moral character, or you can judge certain music to be to your liking or disliking. We should not have such a negative stigma attached to the word "judge." It is a harmless word that people take offense to.

    I have been confronted by the more unpleasant variety of Christian, the ones who judge me harshly, the ones with closed minds who think only they have found the truth. I have stood up to these people, but not one time have I ever been able to convince them that they are wrong.
    I have. I know others who have also. Perhaps the flaw is with your technique then. Also, I have had my mind changed on numerous religious/atheist related topics over many years by seeing/hearing/reading other atheists espouse their views.

    We never discuss religion or politics out of respect for each other.
    That is not a sign of respect, or disrespect. It is merely a sign that the risks of doing so would be higher than the rewards. People who respect each other can and often do talk politics/religion, even when they fundamentally disagree. Respecting someone does not mean you need to shut up around them whenever you disagree with what they say. That is more a compromise to shut up for mutual self interest, which is different from shutting up "out of respect."

    If you are worried about those who want to change laws based on their religious beliefs, the best thing one can do is to become active in politics, run for office, get involved, help register people to vote, give money to people who will support your views, and above all else vote.
    Even better, we can also become very socially active much earlier by engaging the culture and speaking up and about our own opinions. Do not wait until the last minute of an election cycle to air your beliefs and criticizing other bad beliefs. Speak up here, speak up now. That kind of investment has a better chance of paying off later on.

  2. Top | #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
    ps: If I haven't replied to your every post, please remember that there are 10 of you and one of I; plus I have a day job
    Isn't doing everything you can to help save people from hell more important than your day job?

    To borrow from an earlier analogy, if you are on your way to work and see an inattentive pedestrian about to get hit by an inattentive car driver, wouldn't you do everything in your ability to stop that collision from occurring, even if it meant getting to work a few minutes later and not getting all your daily job done?

    When the stakes are even infinitely higher, why would you prioritize your daily job over preventing people from suffering for all of eternity?

    It seems that an omnipotent God could, if it really wanted to, take care of your own personal needs so that you would not have to devote any time to them, and you could instead focus all of your resources on saving people from hell.
    Hi Brian,
    You're probably right. In fact, I know you're right - I could try harder. I am where I am at as far as being a good human; there are plenty further down the road than I. And yes, the more I am here, the more I think that I should be here more. I will do my best. Even with a job, I could do more. Maybe I should change my name to LazyI.

    I just wanted to point out one thing also - I don't believe in hell so much as just death, for various reasons. However, as I mentioned, perhaps there is a hell for those who really need it (Satan, his besties, Keith&Co and such). God only knows. I just want you guys to know that the water of salvation is free - give it a try. Knock and it shall be opened. No, I doubt God will reach out of the sky, at least not in the first 15 years, but ya never know.

    Will God send a winning lottery ticket my way. Hope so. Until then, I'm sure he's got it all under control.


    1I


    Ps; regarding above, Just kidding Keith&Co. judge not lest one be judged.

  3. Top | #283
    Senior Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
    I will do my best. Even with a job, I could do more.
    I mean more than that however. If this narrative about your religious beliefs is true, then you should quit your job and devote all of your time, energy, and attention to evangelizing for it. Let God take care of your personal finances and making sure you can pay your bills and feed your stomach.

    I just wanted to point out one thing also - I don't believe in hell so much as just death, for various reasons.
    Color me curious. What are those reasons?

    However, as I mentioned, perhaps there is a hell for those who really need it (Satan, his besties, Keith&Co and such). God only knows.
    Perhaps there is a hell for those who do not really need it. Perhaps there is no hell at all. Or there is a hell, and God sends all men to hell while all women go to heaven. Or God sends all who prefer crunchy peanut butter to heaven and those who prefer creamy peanut butter will go to hell. Perhaps God will send everyone to heaven who stood up to Himself and defied his authoritianism, while sending everyone to hell who simply acquiesced to Himself. Perhaps everyone born on a Tuesday goes to heaven and everyone else goes to hell. Who knows? With God, all things are possible.

    I just want you guys to know that the water of salvation is free...
    That is entirely untrue though. It is anything but free. You must completely and entirely and unquestionably commit to obedience and worship of God for all of your existence. If you don't, he will make you suffer for all of eternity.

    Just think to anytime in your own life experiences where you have given a gift or received a gift to/from anyone else. Have those "free gifts" EVER included a disclaimer that the other person must then swear complete allegiance and obedience to the other, and if they do not swear as such then they will be tortured? If the word "free" is going to mean anything at all, we have to recognize that it does not apply to this package deal that comes with religion. It has an infinitely expensive price tag.

  4. Top | #284
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
    I just want you guys to know that the water of salvation is free - give it a try.
    But it's not 'free.' There are strings attached.
    If salvation was free, God would just give it to all his children, not those that meet his requirements.

    And the requirements include accepting some really offensive basics as fact, rules and claims that don't make sense to me. I would have to lie to say that I accept this deal. And lying is one of the strings....

  5. Top | #285
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    Brian, I'm not going to respond to your most recent posts. You and I see things in such vastly different ways, that I see no reason to continue this conversation. We're not going to change each other's minds, and that is why I frequently leave threads. It seems pointless to continue.

  6. Top | #286
    Veteran Member funinspace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    I just want you guys to know that the water of salvation is free...
    That is entirely untrue though. It is anything but free. You must completely and entirely and unquestionably commit to obedience and worship of God for all of your existence. If you don't, he will make you suffer for all of eternity.
    Well, if the roughly 29% of humanity that claims this free gift, then it really isn't that costly for most. After all, most claimed Christians barely have a clue about their holy book. Huge numbers of them regularly ignore its dictates (even assuming that said persons can come up with what they are supposed to do/not do). I have evangelical in-laws, and they swear regularly, regularly slander people and display hate on social media, are war mongers, are gluttons, and most of the kids openly had sex before marriage. But oh, do they despise those 'gay' people. But sure it still costs them some wasted time on Sunday...

    Anywho, on the "salvation is free - give it a try" thingy. How does one give something a try, if one has logically concluded it (the theology) is largely all made up? FWIW, I grew up mainstream Protestant. In college I switched to an evangelical/Bible church thinking it was more Bible based. After a dozen years, the cracks formed and grew. I still remember think of 1 Corinthians 10:13 "No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it." Yeah, that didn't work out... Sounds like telling a gay person to just try having straight sex again, it might change you.

  7. Top | #287
    Senior Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    Brian, I'm not going to respond to your most recent posts. You and I see things in such vastly different ways, that I see no reason to continue this conversation. We're not going to change each other's minds, and that is why I frequently leave threads. It seems pointless to continue.
    You are welcome to change your mind anytime.

    In having observed your arguments over time, I have to mention that many of them rely on using detailed personal anecdotes and experiences and over-extrapolating from them into drawing unwarranted conclusions. It is the hasty generalization fallacy at play. I do not point this out to hurt you, but just wanted to let you know of this habit so you can spot it easier yourself as well and then correct for it. In the example earlier, you may be entirely right that you personally have not seen 1 person ever change their mind on their religious beliefs after a frank and candid discussion about it, but that does not in the slightest mean that such changes are impossible for everyone and that they never happen at all. A lot of people do deconvert because they were approach and confronted with questions and ideas from atheists/nontheists that they had never encountered before.
    Last edited by Brian63; 06-20-2019 at 04:19 PM.

  8. Top | #288
    Senior Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funinspace View Post
    Anywho, on the "salvation is free - give it a try" thingy. How does one give something a try, if one has logically concluded it (the theology) is largely all made up?
    Yup, it is like telling an adult to revert back to the Santa Claus belief. It made you feel good back when you believed it, so might as well believe it again yeah? Well no, we cannot just pick and choose what to believe. We need to be convinced that an idea is true. We cannot throw darts at a belief-dartboard and use that to determine which beliefs we will hold.

  9. Top | #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by funinspace View Post
    Anywho, on the "salvation is free - give it a try" thingy. How does one give something a try, if one has logically concluded it (the theology) is largely all made up?
    Yup, it is like telling an adult to revert back to the Santa Claus belief. It made you feel good back when you believed it, so might as well believe it again yeah? Well no, we cannot just pick and choose what to believe. We need to be convinced that an idea is true. We cannot throw darts at a belief-dartboard and use that to determine which beliefs we will hold.

    Hi Brian, Sohy, Keith&Co, and the rest....

    Sorry for the long absence - my work demands that I sometimes focus on it.

    Yes Brian, you are right - if I was a perfect Christian, I would throw caution and finances to the wind and just spend 24/7 trying to teach others. I'm not though. I'm not even a very good Christian, but nonetheless, I somehow find myself on this thread talking about it, doing my best to answer questions and maybe give some or one of you a reason to believe in Jesus, the Bible.

    To answer your question above, how does one give it a try if you believe it's all made up (and revert back to Santa Claus). From my perspective, I think that the Bible is telling us to go beyond our own logic, and to just have faith. Maybe that's why God doesn't just send down the DVD - he wants people who can just trust. Jesus said blessed are those who believe without seeing. I know that goes against daily logic - we all want proof of everything before we sign on the dotted line, but in this case, we are asked to sign up just on belief. Crazy eh.

    Here's an analogy that comes to my mind. Say your wife went out somewhere and came home and you said where have you been and she said - out with my friend, Susan. Would you ask her to prove it? Could you just trust that what she says is true, or would you need proof. I think a husband who loves his wife would take her word for it. I also think that she would be offended if you demanded proof. Maybe it's kind of similar to what God wants from us. Now, if you just can't believe it without proof - then maybe that's your problem and not God's.

    The way I believe it, God sent his Son to save those who believe in him. (Period). We come to him as children, not as lawyers with a magnifying glass. You believe; you live with Jesus in heaven for eternity. The thing is, he can't force you to believe. It's up to you. So just do it. Put down your logic and just except it. Some things, especially when it comes to God, are beyond our limited comprehension.

    Here's another analogy: Just like when a parent tells a child something they don't understand, it is important that the child listen to the parent and do what they say, even though they don't understand. Otherwise, the child, leaning fully on his own knowledge, would be drinking bleach and eating Tide pods.

    The reason I don't believe in hell (at least not for the garden variety non-believer) because then that would make God a tyrant, torturing people endlessly. Therefore, I believe, those people who don't move on, will simply be annihilated. Maybe I'm wrong though. Does it say in the Bible that God will torture all non believers for ever and ever?

    Here is a link that will certainly explain it better than me. It's entitled: CHRIST DIDN’T CONDEMN NON-CHRISTIANS TO HELL

    https://lifehopeandtruth.com/life/li...tians-to-hell/

    So ya, I believe more along those lines than the hell scenerio. Basically, it says that everyone who dies will get the full story, and THEN, if they still don't believe and continue to tell Jesus to F-off, then they get the hell treatment.

    That's it from me tonight my friends. I will try to be back more often. I do enjoy being able to debate these things with you. I remind you, that I would not be the one knocking on your door step and trying to force my beliefs on you, but here, on Talk Free thought, in the religious section, in a thread that even has a warning - may contain Christians, I feel comfortable that we can discuss these things.

    Thanks,

    1I

  10. Top | #290
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Theres a difference between 'out with my friend, Susan' and 'out with Susan riding unicorns over the rainbow.'
    One is possible and my mind accepts it.
    One would, indeed, require substantial evidence. This does not mean i'm bejng an asshole or a lawyer, she is making a claim that i can NOT accept at face value. I never heard of a 'Susan' among her friends.

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