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Thread: Christians: can you talk about which one of you has the theology right?

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    I am a Lutheran by upbringing, and well aware of the Council of Trent and its fallout. What I'm curious about is why you think it was a theological council. They weren't so much there to discuss the nature of God so much as the nature of salvation and what the church as an institution should consider its responsibilities.
    What is the difference between god and the nature of god? What is the difference between salvation and the nature of salvation?
    I have no idea what you're talking about?

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    So, for clarity, are you saying that no Christian holds "wrong theology" because there IS NO wrong theology, you can believe anything at all and still be an accurate christian?
    I'm saying no human is qualified to be the judge of that particular question. It is entirely possible for something to be objectively true or untrue, with or without the endorsement of a man in a pointy hat.

    What's there to disagree about, though? Maybe their Social Policy is exactly biblical and godly, since it's not really something we can know, yeah?
    Maybe, but I'm still going to oppose things that I see as morally wrong. Even if the people doing them are using the Bible to justify it. I am no one's bibliolater, as most here know. I love scriptures, of any religion, but not consider them appropriate objects of worship.

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Let me clarify further the purpose of this thread. A mod can edit this into the OP, if possible, so that new visitors to the thread can understand my hopes/intent.

    It is VERY COMMON for christians to try to "teach us" about Christianity.
    It is VERY COMMON for christians to claim we are "interpreting the bible wrong" or some version of, "I know the accurate meaning, you do not," despite both of us having a copy of the book and working brains.
    It is VERY COMMON for Christians to tell us that what we heard from one christian is wrong, and we should listen to the current christian instead.

    Here on this forum, a Christian said something like, "I am here to teach you how to be christian". And here on this forum another christian said, "You are interpreting that passage wrong," (this was the unequal yoke, lightness with dark passage) "and most Christians also interpret it wrong, this is what's right."


    So my hope and intent in this thread is to LISTEN IN while you all try to convince each other about what's right and what's wrong, to see what arguments you use. It seems that STEP ONE in salvation would be the ability of the people who actually believe the god to be true should be able to convince each other! of what's the right interpretation with enough reason that it's irrefutable, before they have the chutzpah to tell me I'm doing it wrong. If your argument can't even be believable to another christian, why do you think you're qualified to refute my claim that the bible is full of really awful, mean, evil shit?

    So I'm am seeking to put my ego on the shelf, take myself right out of it, and listen to you convince each other! and see what your thoughts look like.


    It does not advance the discussion to point to writings that christians clearly disagree on and call that a successful discussion between christians. And it does not advance the discussion at all to say, "no one knows, but you atheists are definitely wrong."

    Until I can see you all convince each other then all I can see is that my interpretation is perfectly correct - as much as yours is.
    I think the Christian population ws on to you from the get-go, which may explain why most of them aren't here. Who wants to fight for someone else's amusement?

  4. Top | #14
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    It is not for amusement. I'm sorry if it sounded like I wanted to laugh. I don't. I want to see what their arguments MEAN. To them. And to each other. Without me trying to claim interpretation, I was hoping they would discuss interpretation so I could listen. I felt that having them talk to each other would remove the appearance of combativeness.


    But if that feels like a "trap" of some kind, then, I guess maybe that's an answer of sorts.

    ???


    On the other hand, it's been less than a half a day since I posted the question, so maybe they were doing life. I'm a patient person.

  5. Top | #15
    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    In the spirit of the OP I offer the following: Yes I have become a skeptic. But from my childhood I was a devout believer: Upon graduation from High School I attended Christian Colleges, obtaining a Bachelor of Arts in Bible with a minor in Koine Greek and a 2nd minor in Communications. I became a preacher in 1978 and preached my last sermon in 2001, still a believer when I stepped down from the pulpit for the last time. I prayed to God in the privacy of my bedroom and dedicated myself to his service.

    I haven't forgotten the things I knew then. Although I have learned new things since that have undermined the core beliefs I once held I believe I am quite capable of defending them now just as a debate student must be capable of defending an issue whether or not he or she believes it to be true.

    For purposes of this thread I will be the man who stepped down from that pulpit 18 years ago. Anyone, believer or skeptic alike, is welcome to challenge me. Let us begin:

    I am a member of the church of Christ. Although many outsiders believe that the church of Christ is a protestant denomination, we reject this appellation. We are not a denomination at all. We are simply the true, living, church of Christ which Jesus began and authorized his Apostles to spread to the entire world in the year 33 A.D. Nothing more.

    Over the years Satan found ways to appeal to the pride of men and cause them to corrupt Christ's church, stealing away members with cunning lies and deceit. Paul and others fought tirelessly against such corruption, but it goes on today. Still yet the true church remains and as has been the case throughout human history, is a small minority. But we take heart and persevere, knowing that Jesus prophesied this very condition in Matthew 7:14, saying that "strait is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it."

    Above all, Satan does not want people to be saved. He wants to destroy that which God has created and to subvert the salvation which God has prepared for his people. His very name (Satan) means "The Adversary" and he has made it his purpose to ensure the damnation of as many of us as possible.

    It is important to understand that while God loves us he does require obedience to his commandments. God has given us in his word everything we need to know in order to be pleasing to him and to obtain salvation. II Timothy 3:16-17: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of god may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." The idea that we cannot understand God is an unscriptural one. It smacks of giving up on this promise made by God's inspired writer.

    At the heart of understanding God and what it is that he requires of us is respecting the scriptures he has given us and accepting them as the primary source of our salvation. It is when we begin polluting these divinely authorized scriptures with the opinions and philosophies of mere mortals that we are led away from truth and into Satan's waiting arms.

    Alexander Campbell summed this principle up nicely as follows: "Speak where the bible speaks; be silent where the bible is silent. Do bible things in bible ways and call bible things by bible names. Always have a 'Thus saith the Lord' for everything that we do or preach."

    This principle is borne out in scripture or it would not be valid. "Revelation 22:18-19 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

    Do not tamper with the word of God. In Leviticus 10:1-2, Nadab and Abihu dared tamper with the word of God and were consumed immediately with fire from heaven in front of their own father and everyone else watching. This was done as an example to demonstrate that God does not take lightly those who would change his commandments. God would not even permit their father (Aaron) to grieve over their deaths. God loves us and desires that all persons should come to salvation (II Peter 3:9) but salvation must be on his terms.

    In II Timothy 2:15 Paul writes "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

    Those among us who do not know God's word have reason to be ashamed. Studying it and allowing it to guide our minds and lives is the path towards truth and salvation. What does it mean to "rightly divide" the word of truth?

    First of all, it involves understanding which parts of the bible apply to us today and which apply to someone else. The bible is a large book and it contains instances of interactions between God and mankind that encompass thousands of years. What God told one person may not apply to another person. God's law for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was quite simple, and there was only one thing they could do that would violate his law. When they did so there were consequences. Today, we are not amenable to the law God set in the Garden of Eden - we are amenable to a different law. As Paul said, we must "rightly divide" the word of truth in order to know what law we are amenable to today.

    The book of Galatians was written to people who were struggling with that same question. "Are we amenable to the Old Testament as well as to the New?" To answer that question, Paul referred to the Old Testament as a "Schoolmaster" that taught us when we were young, but when we reached adulthood we were no longer under that schoolmaster (Galatians 3:25). The law of Christ is a law of "faith" as opposed to the law of Moses which was primarily a law of "works."

    In its context this passage spells things out quite succinctly:
    Galatians 3

    :24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    :25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    :26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    :27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    :28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    :29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
    This is getting way too long, for which I apologize. I have much else to say but will pause here, having laid the foundation for that which is to follow.

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    It is not for amusement. I'm sorry if it sounded like I wanted to laugh. I don't. I want to see what their arguments MEAN. To them. And to each other. Without me trying to claim interpretation, I was hoping they would discuss interpretation so I could listen. I felt that having them talk to each other would remove the appearance of combativeness.


    But if that feels like a "trap" of some kind, then, I guess maybe that's an answer of sorts.

    ???


    On the other hand, it's been less than a half a day since I posted the question, so maybe they were doing life. I'm a patient person.
    Have you ever paid a visit to religiousforums.com? I am an occasional contributor at that site, and both ecumenical and interfaith conversations abound.

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    Theology is codifying all the accumulated legend and fantasy and moral coercions that a group clings to (sampling Obama there.) The tragedy is that it stultifies thought and, through the largest chunk of the Christian Era, led to murder as warring believers in the same nominal faith cheerfully reduced each other to ashes. The same can be found in Islam (and currently), and then there is the long, vigorous historical record of faith vs. faith (i.e., Crusades, Hindu vs. Muslim, et alia.) I realize fully that I'm playing Capt. Obvious here. Orthodoxy blows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ideologyhunter View Post
    Theology is codifying all the accumulated legend and fantasy and moral coercions that a group clings to (sampling Obama there.) The tragedy is that it stultifies thought and, through the largest chunk of the Christian Era, led to murder as warring believers in the same nominal faith cheerfully reduced each other to ashes. The same can be found in Islam (and currently), and then there is the long, vigorous historical record of faith vs. faith (i.e., Crusades, Hindu vs. Muslim, et alia.) I realize fully that I'm playing Capt. Obvious here. Orthodoxy blows.
    I keep belaboring this point in similar threads, but I'm skeptical of the claim that religion stultifies thought. People not being particularly intelligent is what stultifies thought. Religion is an effect, not a cause. It's only with an overwhelming amount of technical and scientific progress that we've been able to convince a small slice of people that a tiny amount of what they believe may not be true.

    And even those who have moved past religion don't usually understand much else - things like evolution, society, history.. etc etc. Basic maxims about life as it actually exists pretty much blow by most of us.

    To me this is important because the problem is actually that most people don't know how to think soundly, not that if we could just overcome the latest delusion everything would be great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    In another thread, a christian says they will show us how to be christian. I’d like to propose a discussion where we get to see yiu talk to each other about what’s accurate.

    Non christians, clarifying questions only please, not argument.
    For the official Roman Catholic theology, see Council of Trent and Fourth Lateran Council.
    The Fourth Lateran Council were a bunch of heretical splitters. If you don't get your theology from the Third Lateran Council, you're fucking dead to me.

  10. Top | #20
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    I believe the RCC catechism lays out rules and responsibilities. along with the power structure.

    https://www.kofc.org/en/catechism/index.html#

    The RCC claims authority by virtue of the line of popes going back to Peter.

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