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Thread: Sacrifices - Derail from Christians: can you talk...

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    Sacrifices - Derail from Christians: can you talk...

    A question for theists if they want to answer:

    How does a sacrifice atone for sin? Can you provide the reasoning of how it works?

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    Veteran Member Ford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    A question for theists if they want to answer:

    How does a sacrifice atone for sin? Can you provide the reasoning of how it works?
    Follow up question: How does a sacrifice that's not actually a sacrifice do this?

    God "sacrificed" his "only son" to atone for mankind's sins, but Jesus was actually god, did not die, and if we're being honest didn't actually atone for any sin because there was a condition attached.

    Jesus/God suffered a bit of discomfort, spent a relatively brief time in Hell (which he created), then went to Heaven to sit at the feet of...himself...and then didn't really absolve anyone of their sins, because unless you accept all the above without question, you're still eternally fucked.

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    A question for theists if they want to answer:

    How does a sacrifice atone for sin? Can you provide the reasoning of how it works?
    What else could? If you wrong someone, mending the rupture between you and they will almost certainly require a sacrifice on your part. Burnt bridges cannot be repaired by any other means.

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    Veteran Member Ford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    If you wrong someone, mending the rupture between you and they will almost certainly require a sacrifice on your part. Burnt bridges cannot be repaired by any other means.
    Not really, no.

    I'm gonna go with anecdotal evidence here, but I think it applies. Ten years ago I got a phone call from my ex wife. She called to apologize. Why? Because her at the time fiance' had cheated on her in almost the exact same way that she had cheated on me almost another decade earlier. He gave her the same excuses she gave me. The time of year was even the same. She felt guilty because she was experiencing the exact same pain she put me through, and she finally understood.

    Did she have to be crucified? Did she have to suffer for a weekend and then be resurrected? No. The simple act of her calling me to apologize was enough. That's all I was looking for. Then I thanked her for being honest, forgave her, and talked her through it. We're fine now. It's all water under that burnt bridge, and her contrition repaired the rupture.

    If we can do that...two flawed humans who fix a wrong with apologies and forgiveness...then what's god's problem?

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    Veteran Member Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ford View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    A question for theists if they want to answer:

    How does a sacrifice atone for sin? Can you provide the reasoning of how it works?
    Follow up question: How does a sacrifice that's not actually a sacrifice do this?

    God "sacrificed" his "only son" to atone for mankind's sins, but Jesus was actually god, did not die, and if we're being honest didn't actually atone for any sin because there was a condition attached.

    Jesus/God suffered a bit of discomfort, spent a relatively brief time in Hell (which he created), then went to Heaven to sit at the feet of...himself...and then didn't really absolve anyone of their sins, because unless you accept all the above without question, you're still eternally fucked.
    Worse yet, according to Paul's theology God from the beginning decided who is to be of the elect and saved, and who is not elect and not saved, and not because of any acts they will do, all of which is predetermined by God anyway. According to Christian theologians, nobody really can know if they are of the elect or not. Life is a crap shoot, with God or not.
    Cheerful Charlie

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ford View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    If you wrong someone, mending the rupture between you and they will almost certainly require a sacrifice on your part. Burnt bridges cannot be repaired by any other means.
    Not really, no.

    I'm gonna go with anecdotal evidence here, but I think it applies. Ten years ago I got a phone call from my ex wife. She called to apologize. Why? Because her at the time fiance' had cheated on her in almost the exact same way that she had cheated on me almost another decade earlier. He gave her the same excuses she gave me. The time of year was even the same. She felt guilty because she was experiencing the exact same pain she put me through, and she finally understood.

    Did she have to be crucified? Did she have to suffer for a weekend and then be resurrected? No. The simple act of her calling me to apologize was enough. That's all I was looking for. Then I thanked her for being honest, forgave her, and talked her through it. We're fine now. It's all water under that burnt bridge, and her contrition repaired the rupture.

    If we can do that...two flawed humans who fix a wrong with apologies and forgiveness...then what's god's problem?
    I was answering the question asked, not making a defense of substitutionary atonement en totale, whatever nasty version of it was taught to you.

    Torture would have been irrelevant to your situation. The sacrifice you demanded was an admission of guilt: an injury to her pride, not her body. And you got it.

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    Senior Member remez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ford View Post
    Then I thanked her for being honest, forgave her, and talked her through it. We're fine now. It's all water under that burnt bridge, and her contrition repaired the rupture.
    Well done.

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    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Torture would have been irrelevant to your situation. The sacrifice you demanded was an admission of guilt: an injury to her pride, not her body. And you got it.
    Torture is ENTIRELY relevant, because Ford didn’t demand anything, and he certainly did not torture her for not giving an apology, either in the first ten years or if she never had apologized. Nor was her apology a “sacrifice,” he explained that it was a heartfelt empathy gained after similar experience, she didn’t suffer or give anything up in apologizing.

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    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    What skeptics often fail to take into consideration in this discussion is the concept of justice. Yes, God is good and loving, but he is also just (which is an inseparable component of being good.) The bible is quite clear that the "Wages of sin is death" (Romans 3:23). If we can but accept this principle as the same sort of brute fact that skeptics often are willing to accept the existence of an uncreated universe as a brute fact, we can move on to the fact that since sin was committed justice would not be served without death.

    Human beings have the ability to allow, accept, sometimes even embrace injustice. The scriptures teach that God is perfect and just in all of his ways. Not just some of his ways, all of them. Accepting injustice would taint that perfection. What often seems trivial to us (accepting an apology in lieu of restitution) would be impossible for us if we weren't so easily satisfied with injustice.

    The scriptures also teach the role of animal sacrifice as a temporary atonement for sin. The book of Hebrews covers this over several chapters, but a key verse is Hebrews 10:4 - "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." The writer makes a point that sin is "remembered" every year. The deaths of these animals in sacrifice was not a solution. They only forestalled the consequences.

    But this does teach that it is possible for someone else to pay the debt owed in behalf of the guilty party. The problem is that all had sinned (Romans 6:23) and therefore nobody was in a position to pay for someone else's debt.

    And so it came to pass that God took it upon himself to take on the flesh of mortal men, to be tempted with sin in all points like we are, yet live without sin and then pay the price for all of us. This was an act of love, in which he purchased salvation for all mankind and made it possible for all people to have eternal life. Justice was satisfied, the scales were balanced. God then set forth the terms by which one comes to accept this gift of salvation, and the terms are not grievous.

    "Sacrifice" is only difficult when one mocks it and refuses to accept what the bible actually teaches about it.

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    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    A question for theists if they want to answer:

    How does a sacrifice atone for sin? Can you provide the reasoning of how it works?
    What else could? If you wrong someone, mending the rupture between you and they will almost certainly require a sacrifice on your part. Burnt bridges cannot be repaired by any other means.
    But the question is, how?
    What's the link berween me spilling something's/someone's blood and a or all sin being wiped from my slate?

    I mean, i know why milk requires a commercial transaction. Someone labors to produce X gallons of milk, someone else values his labor at Z/hour, or Z/gallon. And someone ELSE values my labor at Y/lesson, and we trade Y for Z and i get milk.

    But the being Who owns every single Thing in His universe won't forgive me until i slaughter one of His other things, because....?

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