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Thread: What would count as proof of God

  1. Top | #81
    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    but omnipotent, as a word, does not merely mean the most powerful being in the room.
    It means all-powerful. Limiting infinite power when it's inconvenient is cheating.
    Why is it not unlimited and all-powerful? Wouldn't God be able to do everything and anything, anywhich how even beyond our understanding?

    (It is beyond me at the moment goodnight)
    I think that's sort of the point. We can understand that we're talking about limited power. Nothing about this discussion is beyond our understanding. But that is a place apologists like to go when they can no longer deal with simple logic that demonstrates the absurdity of certain god-myths. "Mysterious ways. Oooooooh."

    Power is not unlimited if we (mere mortals) can define the limits of it. Any god who knows less than everything knowable could be defeated by a god has all the other powers of the first god but also knows everything. Knowledge is power.

    Another limit: Any god who must use a means to achieve an end is not as powerful as a god who can simply cut straight to the end without the drama. Such a god is "subject" to certain laws of nature or the universe (or whatever) and must operate within those constraints. Many attempts to resolve the Problem of Evil hinge around the idea that god cannot achieve some undefined "greater good" without allowing evil to co-exist. This god has only limited power. A more powerful god would be able to achieve whatever "greater good" it wanted without requiring innocent creatures to experience suffering.

  2. Top | #82
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    but omnipotent, as a word, does not merely mean the most powerful being in the room.
    It means all-powerful. Limiting infinite power when it's inconvenient is cheating.
    Why is it not unlimited and all-powerful?
    because limiting it, pretty much by definition means it is not unlimited.
    Words. Not just for English Teachers.

  3. Top | #83
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    but omnipotent, as a word, does not merely mean the most powerful being in the room.
    It means all-powerful. Limiting infinite power when it's inconvenient is cheating.
    Why is it not unlimited and all-powerful? Wouldn't God be able to do everything and anything, anywhich how even beyond our understanding?

    (It is beyond me at the moment goodnight)
    I think that's sort of the point. We can understand that we're talking about limited power. Nothing about this discussion is beyond our understanding. But that is a place apologists like to go when they can no longer deal with simple logic that demonstrates the absurdity of certain god-myths. "Mysterious ways. Oooooooh."

    Power is not unlimited if we (mere mortals) can define the limits of it. Any god who knows less than everything knowable could be defeated by a god has all the other powers of the first god but also knows everything. Knowledge is power.

    Another limit: Any god who must use a means to achieve an end is not as powerful as a god who can simply cut straight to the end without the drama. Such a god is "subject" to certain laws of nature or the universe (or whatever) and must operate within those constraints. Many attempts to resolve the Problem of Evil hinge around the idea that god cannot achieve some undefined "greater good" without allowing evil to co-exist. This god has only limited power. A more powerful god would be able to achieve whatever "greater good" it wanted without requiring innocent creatures to experience suffering.
    It's kinda how you can tell it's fiction. If Star Trek were real, half their plots could be resolved almost instantly by tech they have displsyed in other episodes. They just have to come up with a technobabnle reason sshy they cannot use the transporter, or the interstellar instantaneous communications, or miraculous medical tech. Technobabble, or an ion storm.
    Drags out the drama, for no other reason than to preserve the drama.

    A truly omnipotent being can do anything, and there literally cannot be any cvonsequences besides what he desires, and no reason at all that an infinitely loving being would put up with any suffering.
    But such a creature is incompatible with the worldcwe see around us, thus we get religiobabnle rationlizations, excuses, and special case redefinitions of simple words.
    Satire. It's 2020, satire is dead. It's hide is tanned and flies as a flag overhead. We don't know whether to salute it or kneel, but either way it's going to piss SOMEBODY right the hell off.

  4. Top | #84
    Member Poppa Popobawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    but omnipotent, as a word, does not merely mean the most powerful being in the room.
    It means all-powerful. Limiting infinite power when it's inconvenient is cheating.
    Why is it not unlimited and all-powerful?
    because limiting it, pretty much by definition means it is not unlimited.
    Words. Not just for English Teachers.
    Of course, if this god is unlimited, it would have unlimited knowledge, such that it would know what would be evidence,
    sufficient to convince any particular individual of its existence. Since some of us are not convinced, that god must knowingly
    NOT have provided evidence which is convincing, (I stress convincing to any one particular individual person, or to any
    person in general).

    If I, for instance, am unconvinced of the existence of any particular god, or all of them, then that god, (or those gods),
    either have provided insufficiently convincing evidence, or perhaps no evidence for their existence, or perhaps is (are),
    not all knowing and all powerful.
    Here is the tragedy of theology, in its distilled essence:
    The employment of high-powered human intellect,
    of genius, of profoundly rigorous logical deduction —
    studying nothing.
    { Andrew Bernstein }

  5. Top | #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post

    I think that's sort of the point. We can understand that we're talking about limited power. Nothing about this discussion is beyond our understanding. But that is a place apologists like to go when they can no longer deal with simple logic that demonstrates the absurdity of certain god-myths. "Mysterious ways. Oooooooh."
    Sure we understand limited power and does your point mean God is restrained to the natural world to clarify? Other than that, these few words doesn't describe or explain WHY certain actions (By God) should or should not be done this way.

    Creating life that can't be replicated or produced in a lab is quite a mysterious thing.

    Power is not unlimited if we (mere mortals) can define the limits of it. Any god who knows less than everything knowable could be defeated by a god has all the other powers of the first god but also knows everything. Knowledge is power.
    Well in the scene in this theology where there is only one Creator who has MORE knowledge than HIS creation. God IS the most powerful.

    Possibly a new topic for discussion, "Would a "second god" pop into existence or would this "second god" be created as the angels were created?"

    Another limit: Any god who must use a means to achieve an end is not as powerful as a god who can simply cut straight to the end without the drama. Such a god is "subject" to certain laws of nature or the universe (or whatever) and must operate within those constraints.
    Perhaps the makings of an individual or the spirit of character in someones heart is NOW most important ... especially with the drama, as it's often indicated in the bible. Who would want to live in Gods Kingdom? Some wouldn't want to. Besides.... just because its not "simply cut straight" the way YOU would think it should be from your experience of the material world .. the physical and logical constraints, doesn't mean God should be also. I mean really .. a Creator of the physical laws?


    Many attempts to resolve the Problem of Evil hinge around the idea that god cannot achieve some undefined "greater good" without allowing evil to co-exist. This god has only limited power. A more powerful god would be able to achieve whatever "greater good" it wanted without requiring innocent creatures to experience suffering.
    To fix potential evil, now that Adam and Eve was shown things (you know the story) God will have to take away those nerve endings which God gave to you as a gift - you know, experiencing the physical world, feel the sun on ones face, breathing in the air and marvel at Gods Glory. Unfortunately Satan knows our anatomy very well.

  6. Top | #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    but omnipotent, as a word, does not merely mean the most powerful being in the room.
    It means all-powerful. Limiting infinite power when it's inconvenient is cheating.
    Why is it not unlimited and all-powerful?
    because limiting it, pretty much by definition means it is not unlimited.
    Words. Not just for English Teachers.
    I'll accept that a god would be limted by the definition in the physical world. This is not the same non physical Creator outside logical (human) and physical constraints.

  7. Top | #87
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    because limiting it, pretty much by definition means it is not unlimited.
    Words. Not just for English Teachers.
    I'll accept that a god would be limted by the definition in the physical world. This is not the same non physical Creator outside logical (human) and physical constraints.
    The physical constraints HE created when HE created the physical world?
    So, you still worship an unlimited god, but with necessary limits where the plot requires it.

    Which do you prefer, religiobabble or theolobabble?

  8. Top | #88
    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    Simplicity of God. An ancient dogma. God is simple, not made of parts. His essences and substance are one. Why. A sustance has essences that make it what it is. A hamster has essences that make it a hamster, and not a table. hamsters, tables, man, God. That is a problem for God. If God is a sustance and has essences, how did those essences become part of God? This implies there is something outside and beyond god that create God as a substance that had the essences we think of as being God's essences. So by making God dismple, these metaphysical outside forces are banished as far as theology is concerned.

    Thus logic, math and other metaphysical necessities are either part of God or created by God. Logic is a creation of God. And God's perfect goodness is part of God's essential nature, a simple nature. Along with his essential omnipotence, omniscience et al.

    Rene Descartes in his letters to Marin Mersenne in 1640 makes that explicit as a theological claim. Morals and mathematics are God's creation.

    Now the problem, why is there moral evil in this world? God could have created man to have free will like God enjoys, and good moral nature as God enjoys so moral evil would not exist. man would by his free will follow his good nature and do no moral evil. Since God creates all logical rules, the core reality of existence, God can do this. This eliminates all theological attempts at theodicy, explaining away evil and God's omnipotence. God can have any state of affairs God wants. Nothing can thwart him, there can be no hidden reasons god cannot do this.

    Moral evil exists. The doctrine of the simplicity of God fails. Logic trumps God, naturalism is supreme. God is either not good, or not all powerful. And then we must ask, where does logic, math, the metaphysical necessities come from? Not God.

    And we have then, the moral nature of man argument. Our creation by God means god must design us, including our moral nature. Bad, indifferent or good. Why would a morally good God not choose creating us with a good moral nature? God, being omniscient would know, our moral nature relies on his design choice, and moral evil will result in he chooses bad or indifferent moral nature for his creations.

    In the end, God does not seem to be a viable hypothesis. We start with Descartes maximal God, derived from the ancient dogma of a simple God and God, examined logically collapses to a not very impressive God when we start asking careful questions about God's purported nature and the nature of the world we find ourselves in.
    Cheerful Charlie

  9. Top | #89
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    ...
    Creating life that can't be replicated or produced in a lab is quite a mysterious thing.
    ...
    Then it's a shame for your god of the gaps that that gap is rapidly closing.

    There are no components of the minimum genome cell that we haven't successfully made in the lab. As far as I am aware, nobody has gone to the trouble of making an entire living cell from only artificial components; But it's only a matter of time. The main reason it's not been done yet (as far as I know, and I am no longer up to date in the field, so it may have been), is that researchers tend to focus on one bit, and just use existing bacteria to provide the rest.

    That's because only theists think life is somehow different and important. It's not; life is just our name for sufficiently complex cyclic chemistry.

    There's literally zero difference between DNA from a living cell, and the same DNA sequence pulled out of a DNA sequencing machine.

  10. Top | #90
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    Sure we understand limited power and does your point mean God is restrained to the natural world to clarify? Other than that, these few words doesn't describe or explain WHY certain actions (By God) should or should not be done this way.

    Creating life that can't be replicated or produced in a lab is quite a mysterious thing.
    That is a rather odd criteria. Anything that someone doesn't understand is a mysterious thing for them. I would assume that how a television was designed and built would be a mystery to you and that you wouldn't be able to make one. This, however, shouldn't make you consider those those who do to be gods... but maybe it does.

    As for science creating critters, an understanding of DNA and the ability to design is fairly well along. In fact, design errors (made by god?) are already being corrected for fetuses in utero.

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