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Thread: What would count as proof of God

  1. Top | #21
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    If God is omniscient and omnipotent, he can prove his divinity to me in a way I find convincing, and knows how to do it.

    Since I am not god, I don't have to say what method he should use, because I don't know it.

    But the fact I can't think of anything is no barrier to God's omnipotence. Any being who can't convince me is, by definition, not omnipotent, and therefore not god.

    It would be quite easy for a being to convince me that it has god-like powers, simply by doing things.
    He might. But let me warn you, it may do nothing to convince your friends and neighbors if he does.

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    Veteran Member Sarpedon's Avatar
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    It's a good thing I'm not pushy about my beliefs, isn't it?

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    At the risk of sounding snide, convincing evidence would be something that convinces me. I have absolutely no idea what kind of activity I'd classify as divine as opposed to classifying it as either a mental aberration or mistake on my part or something done by an alien instead of a god.

    However an omniscient being would know exactly what would convince me and an omnipotent being would be able to provide that evidence. Therefore, if God exists and he was interested in providing me with proof of his existence, he would succeed, despite the fact that I am personally unsure of what exact method he would use in order to succeed. It may be something simple and banal that just kind of clicks with me or it may be something extraordinarily complex which I couldn't find a way to attribute to anything else. If he's real, he knows what it is and the ball's in his court.

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    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    If God is omniscient and omnipotent, he can prove his divinity to me in a way I find convincing, and knows how to do it.

    Since I am not god, I don't have to say what method he should use, because I don't know it.

    But the fact I can't think of anything is no barrier to God's omnipotence. Any being who can't convince me is, by definition, not omnipotent, and therefore not god.

    It would be quite easy for a being to convince me that it has god-like powers, simply by doing things.
    Yes, demonstrating that, if there is a god, he doesn't really give a shit whether or not we know it.

  5. Top | #25
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    It's a good thing I'm not pushy about my beliefs, isn't it?
    Always a prudent quality.

  6. Top | #26
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    The problem isn't with the form the evidence takes. The problem is the "one day" part.

    A one-off event isn't good enough evidence for any extraordinary claim. The more extraordinary a claim is, the more important it becomes that the evidence backing that claim is repeatable.

    And "There's just no way (he/she/I) could possibly have known that, other than (god/psychic powers/supernatural means)", is always false, and is the hallmark of a scam.

    Even if it's very unlikely that someone else could know something you believe to be known only to you, it's still less unlikely than gods. And actually it's very rare for someone to be the only person who knows some secret. Information is more pervasive and leaky than most people realise - a LOT more.

    If someone tells you something that you believed you were the only person who knew, that's very persuasive indeed as an argument for some supernatural phenomenon. That's why stage psychics and astrologers are so successful. It shouldn't be persuasive - but it is, because it plugs straight into our innate desire to be special, important, and interesting.

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    Such a god would simply have to implant the knowledge of its existence in our brains such that we could not ever believe other. This is, of course, just one of the many many fatal flaws in any cult that posits such a being in the first place.

    Cult member: God wrote the bible so that you would know his word!
    Sane person: Why go to such bother? Why didn't he just implant that knowledge?
    Cult member: Because...umm....he wants you to...learn how to read....and, you know, no robots....?

  8. Top | #28
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    There is no such thing as 'proof of god'. The trouble is, there is no way for us to make a distinction between a super powerful alien individual or race and a god.

  9. Top | #29
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    The problem isn't with the form the evidence takes. The problem is the "one day" part.

    A one-off event isn't good enough evidence for any extraordinary claim. The more extraordinary a claim is, the more important it becomes that the evidence backing that claim is repeatable.

    And "There's just no way (he/she/I) could possibly have known that, other than (god/psychic powers/supernatural means)", is always false, and is the hallmark of a scam.

    Even if it's very unlikely that someone else could know something you believe to be known only to you, it's still less unlikely than gods. And actually it's very rare for someone to be the only person who knows some secret. Information is more pervasive and leaky than most people realise - a LOT more.

    If someone tells you something that you believed you were the only person who knew, that's very persuasive indeed as an argument for some supernatural phenomenon. That's why stage psychics and astrologers are so successful. It shouldn't be persuasive - but it is, because it plugs straight into our innate desire to be special, important, and interesting.
    Lots of people have "proven" that Bigfoot is real because they have encountered the beast, provided kooky accounts, grainy videos and pictures, etc. Proof that there's a god isn't much different than proof that there's a bigfoot or a leprechaun.

    Like Sagan said, you can't prove there's a dragon by the burn on your hand from its fiery breath. You have to have the dragon. Events don't prove there's a god, you gotta have the god to prove the god.

  10. Top | #30
    Quantum Hot Dog Kharakov's Avatar
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    So the main problem seems to be the strawman tri-omni God.


    What about the God (perhaps it's a group of beings that presents itself as one being every time it interacts with you, for continuity of experience for you) that learns to control its self, in such a way that it can create other consciousnesses, and respond to them?

    Maybe it sets up the natural system.

    Maybe the natural system is a byproduct of it acting in the best interests of a consciousness it deliberately creates.

    Maybe the natural system is how it reacts to and interacts with the beings it creates- maybe it does not know another way, or this is the best way.


    If it is this type of God- not the bullshit tri-omni God of the ignorant: If it only knows how to create in this (natural) manner, or believes that it is best to start out in this way.


    How would it reveal itself to you in such a way that you wouldn't think it was other intelligent beings fucking with you? Should it?

    What if it isn't a God, but rather we are created by the actions of many intelligent beings that arose from quantum chaos? How would they reveal themselves to you?

    What if there is one God, but it acts for all beings, so there are conflicts that the beings have to work out themselves. It cares, it works for you, but it cannot resolve conflicts between you and other beings because it attempts to satisfy them as well. So blessed are the peacemakers.

    How does this last God reveal itself to you? Politics? Putting someone entirely unpalatable to everyone on top so that everyone learns to be good to one another? Sigh. anyway. If there is a God, it better be smarter than me.

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