Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst ... 8910
Results 91 to 95 of 95

Thread: Is Human Nature Determined by Our Material Conditions?

  1. Top | #91
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Oregon's westernmost
    Posts
    10,104
    Archived
    18,213
    Total Posts
    28,317
    Rep Power
    52
    Really? Maybe this will help. Back in a 1977 dissertation at FSU a student found movement of sound was examined using pink noise from a single source in an anechoic chamber in a study where device movement was masked. It was found that observers used two cues to determine whether sound, Traveling under 8 degrees per second, was moving in a forced choice discrimination experiment. Those cues were pinna effects for vertical movement and frequency differences for lateral movement. Both cues were the result of detecting relative change in apparent frequency IAC time-distance (doppler effect).

    In the other study conducted by the same student as a postdoc while at CalTech in 1980 recorded single and multiple cell response in rats to sound, visual, and somatosensory stimuli at various levels of hindbrain, midbrain, and forebrain along appropriate sensory and motor tracts. Expectation was that at some point in these processing channels a new signal would be detected that predicted altered behavior as the rat performed in a multiple choice lever pressing experiment.

    Instead experimenters found electrical activity for ascending and descending was changing with repetitions at every level in every tract IAC information gains related to number of trials. IOW instead of a place for learning the neural substrate was generating differential activity IAC with practice up and down the sensory motor tracts. This fits with other studies which show similar neural practice and repetition effects for a variety of activities.

    Really just firmer confirmations of the universality of neural optimistic evolution. Using existing substrates within and across modalities to achieve similar neural solutions appropriate to physical dimensions and the existence of neural plasticity underlying behavior.

    Also, if you don't think successful researchers are survivors you are naive.

    If I were an actual BSer I would have claimed to be the scientist that destroyed multidimensional pilot workload estimating as appropriate for most theoretical models of workload published in Edwards AF publication in 1982, a primary designer of primary flight displays for MD-11 in 1989, proved the value of embedding measurements into images and video in support of distance R&M in 1997, Developed on the fly machine vision validation for C-17 in fuselage assembly in 1999, and retired here to happy rainforest in 2002.

    I actually did all those things but wasn't really given much credit for them except by my bride for finding our rainforest on the lake with an ocean view.
    Last edited by fromderinside; 06-11-2019 at 12:20 AM.

  2. Top | #92
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    In a McDonalds in the q space
    Posts
    4,668
    Archived
    3,986
    Total Posts
    8,654
    Rep Power
    37
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Which new theoretical model do you favour? Why not post a summary?
    I just did. Then there is the Penrose and Hameroff paper. It actually supports free will using quantum mechanics.
    I don't see where or why or in what way these model actually support the idea of free will given the flaws that have already been pointed out. You need to provide something more specific than just posting links and mentioning this or that article.
    I have already explained.

  3. Top | #93
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ
    Posts
    8,383
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    26,289
    Rep Power
    68
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    I don't see where or why or in what way these model actually support the idea of free will given the flaws that have already been pointed out. You need to provide something more specific than just posting links and mentioning this or that article.
    I have already explained.
    The problems that were pointed were ignored. Basically, if you can't access or regulate quantum activity or what your cells are doing while they are forming your experience of the world and self, thoughts, decisions, you have no regulative control of your underlying condition, hence no ability to have done otherwise in any given instance in time, therefore your definition of free will fails.

  4. Top | #94
    Veteran Member PyramidHead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    RI
    Posts
    3,454
    Archived
    4,389
    Total Posts
    7,843
    Rep Power
    55
    Two scenarios, ryan:

    1. A quantum particle encased in a box is connected to a radio transmitter. When it randomly decays, it sets off the transmitter, which sends a message to a special receiver wired to my brain, causing me to lift my arm.

    2. A quantum particle residing in my brain somewhere undergoes a random event, setting off a cascade of events that in clusters of neurons that causes me to lift my arm.

    If I'm understanding you correctly, you would say that 2 is what free will means, but it sounds an awful lot like 1 except for the location of the quantum particle. In both cases, there's essentially a train of causality interrupted by an unpredictable zap from a phenomenon originating outside (1) or inside (2) the brain. Functionally the two scenarios are actually identical, if we assume the receiver in the first case exactly replicates all the functions of the neurons in the second case.

    One could picture a guy wandering around with a receiver in his head, and at random moments, a decaying particle in a box somewhere would cause him to do things like lift his arm, turn his head to the right, or wiggle his toes. That seems like a clear case of someone being manipulated by a force beyond his willpower. Yet, replace the receiver with his actual neurons, and have the decaying particle do its thing inside his brain, and suddenly it becomes a person exercising his free will?

  5. Top | #95
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Oregon's westernmost
    Posts
    10,104
    Archived
    18,213
    Total Posts
    28,317
    Rep Power
    52
    Since most neurons in primary sensory tracts are know to receive communication from higher processes and lower processes that pretty much excludes a neuron from being The Decider. It may permit that cell adapting it's output from responding to lower processes information to what has taken place at some previous time what has resulted at pentultimate processes. Unfortunately that can be said for most any neuron in the ascending and descending process.

    A more plausible conclusion would be that whatever information being processed is the result of both more recent and previous input. This seems to be what fMRI studies suggest. Activity at some time at some process corresponds to what will be the organism's overall response prior to any action being taken by the organism. Not exactly promising data for those who suggest 'choice' is optional at some level.

    A reasonable conclusion from the above is that our nature is determined by Material conditions. There is no evidence of divine chimes other than what other animals are known to to be subject. There is no support to be drawn for any 'free' choice hypothesis from examination of organization or behavior.

Similar Threads

  1. Everything after time T is determined
    By rousseau in forum Natural Science
    Replies: 78
    Last Post: 06-17-2019, 07:21 PM
  2. Human nature
    By untermensche in forum Other Philosophical Discussions
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 03-22-2019, 12:19 AM
  3. Human Nature and Having Children
    By rousseau in forum Natural Science
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 12-09-2017, 10:11 PM
  4. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11-17-2017, 06:34 AM
  5. Is the mind material or non-material?
    By DBT in forum Other Philosophical Discussions
    Replies: 304
    Last Post: 07-02-2014, 08:11 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •