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Thread: Is Human Nature Determined by Our Material Conditions?

  1. Top | #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    The question I would ask is: how is neurons being influenced by random quantum fluctuations NOT "environmental causes"? Aren't quantum particles part of the environment just like chemicals and social institutions?
    If I am anything, I am at least my neurons and its electrochemical activity. That is not my environment.
    Why not? I mean, why not, apart from you just stating it. Maybe you're the higher-order functions of your mind that only emerge when complex interactions take place across multiple brain centers. In that case, the lower-level interactions that give rise to those phenomena (and thus give rise to you) are indeed your environment, no less than the food you eat or the air you breathe.
    Entire neurons may be being coupled (does not mean only two) according to https://www.news.ucsb.edu/2018/01884...ntum-computers . That's a pretty high level where consciousness is concerned. It's not just the lower levels that are entangled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post

    Why not? I mean, why not, apart from you just stating it. Maybe you're the higher-order functions of your mind that only emerge when complex interactions take place across multiple brain centers. In that case, the lower-level interactions that give rise to those phenomena (and thus give rise to you) are indeed your environment, no less than the food you eat or the air you breathe.
    Entire neurons may be being coupled (does not mean only two) according to https://www.news.ucsb.edu/2018/01884...ntum-computers . That's a pretty high level where consciousness is concerned. It's not just the lower levels that are entangled.
    Even so, the mechanism that gives rise to the behavior--the fluctuation of a single quanta one way or another--originates at a level far below conscious control. Why should that count as "you" freely deciding to do something, but the spicy food you ate causing you to take a sip of water is not an example of the same thing? Both stem from internal processes you played no part in initiating, and both have effects on networks of neurons.

  3. Top | #73
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    The degree of separation between macro and quantum behavior probably explains failure of continuous function being featured in individual incidents of decay at the quantum level. So why should one expect quantum behavior to be featured in any macro behavior? Macro behavior pretty reliably follows deterministic description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post

    Why not? I mean, why not, apart from you just stating it. Maybe you're the higher-order functions of your mind that only emerge when complex interactions take place across multiple brain centers. In that case, the lower-level interactions that give rise to those phenomena (and thus give rise to you) are indeed your environment, no less than the food you eat or the air you breathe.
    Entire neurons may be being coupled (does not mean only two) according to https://www.news.ucsb.edu/2018/01884...ntum-computers . That's a pretty high level where consciousness is concerned. It's not just the lower levels that are entangled.
    Even so, the mechanism that gives rise to the behavior--the fluctuation of a single quanta one way or another--originates at a level far below conscious control. Why should that count as "you" freely deciding to do something, but the spicy food you ate causing you to take a sip of water is not an example of the same thing? Both stem from internal processes you played no part in initiating, and both have effects on networks of neurons.
    The binding of separated neurons firing that give rise to a holistic conscious control is not understood. An extremely convenient explanation is if these neurons were connected as one through quantum entaglement. It seems to solve one of the binding problems quite nicely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    The degree of separation between macro and quantum behavior probably explains failure of continuous function being featured in individual incidents of decay at the quantum level. So why should one expect quantum behavior to be featured in any macro behavior? Macro behavior pretty reliably follows deterministic description.
    Mathew Fisher explains this in the link that I keep posting https://www.news.ucsb.edu/2018/01884...ntum-computers

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    How do you choose the state of your neurons either way? If you cannot effect QM or the state of your neurons through an act of will, how can you claim freedom of will?
    Define "you" and that should answer your question.
    The question was not about your constituent parts but regulative control, the ability to have chosen otherwise within the conditions you were in. But as it appears, the ability to consciously choose does not extend to the level of cellular activity yet alone molecular, atomic or subatomic scales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    How do you choose the state of your neurons either way? If you cannot effect QM or the state of your neurons through an act of will, how can you claim freedom of will?
    Define "you" and that should answer your question.
    The question was not about your constituent parts but regulative control, the ability to have chosen otherwise within the conditions you were in. But as it appears, the ability to consciously choose does not extend to the level of cellular activity yet alone molecular, atomic or subatomic scales.
    A neuron is a cell, so are you saying that the ability to choose does not extend to neural activity. And the theory is that the neurons may be entangled, not just molecules.

  8. Top | #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    The question was not about your constituent parts but regulative control, the ability to have chosen otherwise within the conditions you were in. But as it appears, the ability to consciously choose does not extend to the level of cellular activity yet alone molecular, atomic or subatomic scales.
    A neuron is a cell, so are you saying that the ability to choose does not extend to neural activity. And the theory is that the neurons may be entangled, not just molecules.
    This issue is related to the conscious activity of networks of cells/the brain, and conscious regulative control....whether conscious activity has the ability or autonomy to alter the course of quantum activity, or even the information condition of cells and networks in order to interupt or alter normal causality in favour of will, thereby qualifying as freewill, the ability to have done otherwise under the same conditions by exercising willful regulative control.

    Which does not appear to be the way our brain functions, or how the world works.
    Last edited by DBT; 06-09-2019 at 02:18 AM.

  9. Top | #79
    Veteran Member PyramidHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    The question was not about your constituent parts but regulative control, the ability to have chosen otherwise within the conditions you were in. But as it appears, the ability to consciously choose does not extend to the level of cellular activity yet alone molecular, atomic or subatomic scales.
    A neuron is a cell, so are you saying that the ability to choose does not extend to neural activity. And the theory is that the neurons may be entangled, not just molecules.
    You're committing a linguistic fallacy here and you must be well aware of it at this point. A neuron is a cell, yes, and the ability to consciously choose does not extend to neurons. Whether it extends to neural activity (the coordinated behavior of billions of neurons!) is another concept entirely (and the answer is also no).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    The question was not about your constituent parts but regulative control, the ability to have chosen otherwise within the conditions you were in. But as it appears, the ability to consciously choose does not extend to the level of cellular activity yet alone molecular, atomic or subatomic scales.
    A neuron is a cell, so are you saying that the ability to choose does not extend to neural activity. And the theory is that the neurons may be entangled, not just molecules.
    This issue is related to the conscious activity of networks of cells/the brain, and conscious regulative control....whether conscious activity has the ability or autonomy to alter the course of quantum activity, or even the information condition of cells and networks in order to interupt or alter normal causality in favour of will, thereby qualifying as freewill, the ability to have done otherwise under the same conditions by exercising willful regulative control.

    Which does not appear to be the way our brain functions, or how the world works.
    Just because things don't appear one way to you doesn't mean that they aren't that way.

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