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Thread: Is Human Nature Determined by Our Material Conditions?

  1. Top | #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    The question was not about your constituent parts but regulative control, the ability to have chosen otherwise within the conditions you were in. But as it appears, the ability to consciously choose does not extend to the level of cellular activity yet alone molecular, atomic or subatomic scales.
    A neuron is a cell, so are you saying that the ability to choose does not extend to neural activity. And the theory is that the neurons may be entangled, not just molecules.
    You're committing a linguistic fallacy here and you must be well aware of it at this point. A neuron is a cell, yes, and the ability to consciously choose does not extend to neurons. Whether it extends to neural activity (the coordinated behavior of billions of neurons!) is another concept entirely (and the answer is also no).
    If not neural activity, then what do you think is responsible for decision making? There is SO MUCH good information I can link claiming otherwise. Are you sure you meant what you said?

  2. Top | #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    This issue is related to the conscious activity of networks of cells/the brain, and conscious regulative control....whether conscious activity has the ability or autonomy to alter the course of quantum activity, or even the information condition of cells and networks in order to interupt or alter normal causality in favour of will, thereby qualifying as freewill, the ability to have done otherwise under the same conditions by exercising willful regulative control.

    Which does not appear to be the way our brain functions, or how the world works.
    Just because things don't appear one way to you doesn't mean that they aren't that way.
    It's not that it appears that way to me, but that this is the way the brain appears to work according to the evidence, case studies, pathologies, memory loss, etc, conditions which effect the brain in specific ways, and in turn, the ability to think, decide and act.

  3. Top | #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    This issue is related to the conscious activity of networks of cells/the brain, and conscious regulative control....whether conscious activity has the ability or autonomy to alter the course of quantum activity, or even the information condition of cells and networks in order to interupt or alter normal causality in favour of will, thereby qualifying as freewill, the ability to have done otherwise under the same conditions by exercising willful regulative control.

    Which does not appear to be the way our brain functions, or how the world works.
    Just because things don't appear one way to you doesn't mean that they aren't that way.
    It's not that it appears that way to me, but that this is the way the brain appears to work according to the evidence, case studies, pathologies, memory loss, etc, conditions which effect the brain in specific ways, and in turn, the ability to think, decide and act.
    You are not considering new theoretical models. You are just claiming that they are false by not letting them have a chance.

  4. Top | #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    It's not that it appears that way to me, but that this is the way the brain appears to work according to the evidence, case studies, pathologies, memory loss, etc, conditions which effect the brain in specific ways, and in turn, the ability to think, decide and act.
    You are not considering new theoretical models. You are just claiming that they are false by not letting them have a chance.
    Which new theoretical model do you favour? Why not post a summary?

  5. Top | #85
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    The degree of separation between macro and quantum behavior probably explains failure of continuous function being featured in individual incidents of decay at the quantum level. So why should one expect quantum behavior to be featured in any macro behavior? Macro behavior pretty reliably follows deterministic description.
    Mathew Fisher explains this in the link that I keep posting https://www.news.ucsb.edu/2018/01884...ntum-computers
    In the article there's an explanation why quantum effects are washed out:

    In the quantum computers we are trying to build, these effects are generated and maintained in highly controlled and isolated environments and at low temperatures. So the warm, wet brain is not considered a conducive environment to exhibit quantum effects as they should be easily “washed out” by the thermal motion of atoms and molecules.
    So it makes little sense in pursuing the topic further.

    Of course he ignores everything he's just said and provides a following hand wave in the article ...

    Extremely well-isolated nuclear spins can store — and perhaps process — quantum information on human time scales of hours or longer,” he said. Fisher posits that phosphorus atoms — one of the most abundant elements in the body — have the requisite nuclear spin that could serve as a biochemical qubit
    ... upon you can hang your wishful thinking all the time not addressing why stable will overcome thermal environment of brain which still having no evidence of macro overcoming the determination enforced by the probabilities required for macro behavior.

    Damn. That determined (averaged over many incidents) requirement for macro behavior is such a bitch, especially since phosphorus in the brain is a molecule subject to that washing out effect. Even if spin could be maintained it can't be communicated. Islands in the storm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    It's not that it appears that way to me, but that this is the way the brain appears to work according to the evidence, case studies, pathologies, memory loss, etc, conditions which effect the brain in specific ways, and in turn, the ability to think, decide and act.
    You are not considering new theoretical models. You are just claiming that they are false by not letting them have a chance.
    Which new theoretical model do you favour? Why not post a summary?
    I just did. Then there is the Penrose and Hameroff paper. It actually supports free will using quantum mechanics.

  7. Top | #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post

    Extremely well-isolated nuclear spins can store — and perhaps process — quantum information on human time scales of hours or longer,” he said. Fisher posits that phosphorus atoms — one of the most abundant elements in the body — have the requisite nuclear spin that could serve as a biochemical qubit

    ... upon you can hang your wishful thinking all the time not addressing why stable will overcome thermal environment of brain which still having no evidence of macro overcoming the determination enforced by the probabilities required for macro behavior.
    You would save his team time and the university a lot of money by telling them what you know.

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    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    I don't need to do that. Their obvious goal is to advance toward production of a quantum computer not to explain the brain.

    Just as it wasn't my goal to explain perception of moving sounds through our ability to exploit doppler as a possible mechanism underlying motion discrimination. It just worked as a good route to a publishable paper which actually did advance knowledge. Nor was my goal to determine learning engarm using time of arrival techniques mapping upward and downward communication within various sensory and corresponding motor tracts about determining how ascending and descending processes lead to a paradigm shift to neural tuning being the primary basis underlying learning.


    All I'm trying to say is that scientists will use every path available to them to find funding for their areas of research, the more sustainable the better.
    Last edited by fromderinside; 06-10-2019 at 06:30 PM.

  9. Top | #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    I don't need to do that. Their obvious goal is to advance toward production of a quantum computer not to explain the brain.

    Just as it wasn't my goal to explain perception of moving sounds through our ability to exploit doppler as a possible mechanism underlying motion discrimination. It just worked as a good route to a publishable paper which actually did advance knowledge. Nor was my goal to determine learning engarm using time of arrival techniques mapping upward and downward communication within various sensory and corresponding motor tracts about determining how ascending and descending processes lead to a paradigm shift to neural tuning being the primary basis underlying learning.


    All I'm trying to say is that scientists will use every path available to them to find funding for their areas of research, the more sustainable the better.
    Wow! This is shocking B.S. even for the internet.

  10. Top | #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Which new theoretical model do you favour? Why not post a summary?
    I just did. Then there is the Penrose and Hameroff paper. It actually supports free will using quantum mechanics.
    I don't see where or why or in what way these model actually support the idea of free will given the flaws that have already been pointed out. You need to provide something more specific than just posting links and mentioning this or that article.

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