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Thread: Mike Pence warns Christian grads to prepare for ridicule from ‘secular left’

  1. Top | #11
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    I doubt that Brain was referring to public higher education. I think he was referring to political power, but you probably already knew that. There has only been one politician in Congress who has been openly atheist afaik, and he never came out of the closet until the end of his career, but there are plenty of far right Christian extremists like Mike Pence, running the country. Why do you think all of these anti abortion laws were so easily passed lately? It's not because of the power of the secular left. It's because of the Christian extremists that are controlling things these days. These poor little conservative Christians have a terrible persecution complex. They always have, but until the past few decades, they never had anyone challenge them.

    When Pence attacks the "secular left", he's probably including people like you, Poli, because despite your love of and involvement in Christian mythology, you're really not much different from the atheists. I've seen you post many times that you're agnostic, so I think it's fair to include you in the so called "secular left". Bwahahaha!

    And, btw, I don't have one bit of problem with liberal Christians like you. I've known several atheist Christians too. They aren't the problem and they hold no power over the rest of us. They believe in the SCS and they are usually decent people who don't try to take rights away from others. The House just passed a bill that gives LGBTQ folks full civil rights, but the Christians on the right are already saying that it will never pass in the Senate. Those poor little Christians feel so persecuted when people they don't like want to have full civil rights like everyone else.

  2. Top | #12
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    When Pence attacks the "secular left", he's probably including people like you, Poli, because despite your love of and involvement in Christian mythology, you're really not much different from the atheists. I've seen you post many times that you're agnostic, so I think it's fair to include you in the so called "secular left". Bwahahaha!
    I would proudly consider myself a secular leftist. An actual leftist, like, "forward the proletariat" and "let's end money" leftist. I've never accepted the relatively recent mis-definition of secularism as inherently atheistic. It is, was, and always has been defined as the belief in the value of separating religious from secular authority, and if there were no Christians who valued this, there would also be no separation of church and state in Western society, those numbers don't add up.

    But I don't feel any special obligation to hate non-secularists, unless they are doing something actively harmful to their society. Mike Pence absolutely does. But his audience is mostly composed of young people I've never met and know little about. I'm not going to despise them personally on account of their faith tradition, nor do I think it is ever a good idea to give in to that temptation.

    And, btw, I don't have one bit of problem with liberal Christians like you. I've known several atheist Christians too. They aren't the problem and they hold no power over the rest of us. They believe in the SCS and they are usually decent people who don't try to take rights away from others. The House just passed a bill that gives LGBTQ folks full civil rights, but the Christians on the right are already saying that it will never pass in the Senate. Those poor little Christians feel so persecuted when people they don't like want to have full civil rights like everyone else.
    I certainly bear no ill will toward people of any religious or non-religious persuasion, I just think everyone should be self-aware and self-critical. Nor, I assure you, am I any sort of fan of Mike Pence. I mean, I wouldn't be sad if I heard he died of syphilis overnight. But that doesn't mean that literally everything he says is wrong. Discrimination is contextual - a factor that is a great advantage on Capitol Hill can be a detriment elsewhere. The graudates he's talking to will face an uphill battle if they want anyone other than fellow graduates of Chrsistian schools to recognize their degree. The open vitriol being shown in this thread isn't an exception case, they'll find the same attitude prevalent in most professional workplaces.

  3. Top | #13
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    Atheisim as a threat goes far back in US history.

    Thomas Paine campaigned for a secular state against those who wanted a theocracy and was labeled a 'dirty little atheist'.

    Being vocal atheist in small communities in the past could get you into trouble.

    If you listen to FOX along with TV and radio evangelists it s back with a vengeance. Atheists are out to take Christmas away from kids and the like. They are out to take away religion and rituals. Science is also a target, science being an arm of atheism used to attack religion.

    Pence is representative.

    The obvious hypocrisy and irony as well is the Christian demonization of others.

  4. Top | #14
    Senior Member Brian63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    What would you say was the last year that being a Christian gave you a tangible advantage over non-Christians in public higher education?
    Sorry, that whole question has me confused. What it means at all, and why it is being asked of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    But I don't feel any special obligation to hate non-secularists, unless they are doing something actively harmful to their society. Mike Pence absolutely does. But his audience is mostly composed of young people I've never met and know little about. I'm not going to despise them personally on account of their faith tradition, nor do I think it is ever a good idea to give in to that temptation.
    For the sake of clarity, do you think I myself was advocating doing any of that? If not, who else is advocating for doing those things? Anyone in this specific thread or forum?

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    The graudates he's talking to will face an uphill battle if they want anyone other than fellow graduates of Chrsistian schools to recognize their degree. The open vitriol being shown in this thread isn't an exception case, they'll find the same attitude prevalent in most professional workplaces.
    Perhaps that is true in places like California, but I assure you it's not true where I live. Before I retired, a young woman, with a degree in Bible studies from a Christian college was hired to be the activity director for the residents of the long term facility where I worked. She was a wonderful person, bright, and enthusiastic about her role. I loved her. She didn't wear her religion on her sleeve like some do. The one thing that I regret is that she and I never had a chance to go to lunch together. She was interested in why I went from conservative Christianity to atheist. I told her if she was open minded and merely interested in hearing my story, I would love to share my story over lunch. Unfortunately, I never had a chance to meet with her before my last day of work.

    The problem with having a degree in Bible studies or most liberal arts, regardless of where it came from, is that they are not seen by most employers as relevant to the jobs they need filled. Noel was hired at a very low salary, but she has been given the opportunity to develop her skills and gain experience. Nobody cares where your degree came from after you gain a few years of relevant experience. Perhaps it matters in certain professions, but for the most part, experience is more important than where you obtained the degree.

    Not all fundamentalist Christians are like Pence, but those who are, I consider dangerous. And, I disagree with what he told those young grads. Secularists don't attack others at work, unless they are being targeted. I have been the victim of such targeting, but there was only one time when it was more than I could handle.

    People on discussion boards often vent their anger or frustration. I wouldn't judge what they say here as evidence of what they might say in other places. The only reason I was often open about my atheism at work is in reaction to Christians who expected me to be a Christian. In some jobs, it wasn't a problem, while in other jobs it was. If a Christian can talk openly about religion at work, openly pray, and sometimes even listen to religious music in the office where others can hear it, shouldn't an atheist or someone of another religion be permitted to object or speak up about why they are bothered by that atmosphere?

  6. Top | #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    If a Christian can talk openly about religion at work, openly pray, and sometimes even listen to religious music in the office where others can hear it, shouldn't an atheist or someone of another religion be permitted to object or speak up about why they are bothered by that atmosphere?
    That makes the most sense.

    Sometimes I think that in our cultural subconscious there is this realization that religious people are not as strong as non religious people. Cognitive inequality makes them like children, and we need laws to protect them. They're still playing with baby dolls, only now they've become invisible baby dolls that they can still make talk and be alive, and dress them however they wish. And so we compromise when it comes to accommodating their needs.

    It is certainly true that religious people have persecuted non-religious people, as well as people of other religions. There are many obsolete laws in the U.S. that marginalized and punished anyone who would not profess some kind of similar religious belief to the christian majority. But certainly, if we have laws on the books that protect open religious expression in a workplace for example, the same laws imply that open criticism of religious expression must also be tolerated.

  7. Top | #17
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    A few years ago I watched the papal Christmas mass. I thought it was a riot. Old men in funny hats and costumes walking around in patterns. It really appeared comical.

    I can respect that, but I can also respect getting naked and howling at the moon if that is what suits you. Respect plusb a chuckle or two.

    I do not get that general Christian kind of arrogance and condescension from American Muslims and Jews I have known.

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