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Thread: Race - where both Left and Right go wrong

  1. Top | #11
    Contributor repoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    I think, from the perspective of what you are calling the left (I guess, I would call it common sense) is that it's not denying that there may be slight evolutionary differences in variations on the theme, but that it is of no use to classify people based on any of these theories as to a groups worth within society. In fact, the potential to do much. much more harm than any good (if possible at all) is off the charts.
    That's a reasonable position. DC&JF was arguing that an "IQ gene" that noticeably varies between groups is not an absolute impossibility, and that it is not ruled out by 85% of human genetic variability being in-group. Furthermore, there are several genes known to be in that 15%, like genes for skin color and various facial features.

    Having settled that one cannot rule out an "IQ gene" from such general evidence, one can still address the question of whether such a gene exists. There is no evidence for such a gene, and heritability of performance in IQ tests is (1) heavily polygenic and (2) with variability mostly in-group variability.

    As to repoman's hypothesis, that is pure supposition -- and supposition without good support.

    I close with this: Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881)
    In a heated debate in parliament, O'Connell referred to Disraeli's Jewish ancestry in disparaging terms to which Disraeli responded:

    Yes, I am a Jew and when the ancestors of the right honourable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon.
    Referring to a certain Daniel O'Connell's Irish ancestry.
    Ah, two plus milennia of selective pressure towards being a scholastic priest (raw power and temperament) that Disraeli's ancestors had gone through compared to O'Connell's. Also, those people having a lot of kids, whereas Catholic priests who were more likely genetically made for that calling of being so scholastic had no kids. That is a poor strategy.

    That of course needs a lot of mating and child rearing mechanisms to work. That could be enough time.

  2. Top | #12
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    I feel 100% certain that if this thread continues for a few pages and more people jump in it will support my earlier post.

  3. Top | #13
    Contributor Trausti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    I think, from the perspective of what you are calling the left (I guess, I would call it common sense) is that it's not denying that there may be slight evolutionary differences in variations on the theme, but that it is of no use to classify people based on any of these theories as to a groups worth within society. In fact, the potential to do much. much more harm than any good (if possible at all) is off the charts.

    As we witness time and time again, without exception.
    No one is saying that except progressives and their hierarchical stack.

  4. Top | #14
    Contributor Trausti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by repoman View Post
    Ah, two plus milennia of selective pressure towards being a scholastic priest (raw power and temperament) that Disraeli's ancestors had gone through compared to O'Connell's. Also, those people having a lot of kids, whereas Catholic priests who were more likely genetically made for that calling of being so scholastic had no kids. That is a poor strategy.
    You think Catholic priests didn't have children? The ghost of Borgia laughs at you. The Church's prohibition really concerned the accumulation of wealth and local power, not procreation. Unmarried men with bastard children leave everything to the Church when they die. A bit OT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    I think, from the perspective of what you are calling the left (I guess, I would call it common sense) is that it's not denying that there may be slight evolutionary differences in variations on the theme, but that it is of no use to classify people based on any of these theories as to a groups worth within society. In fact, the potential to do much. much more harm than any good (if possible at all) is off the charts.

    As we witness time and time again, without exception.
    No one is saying that except progressives and their hierarchical stack.
    It didn't take a few pages. It took one post.

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    With such a mixing of cultures and people, especially now with human migration accelerating, I think any attempts at identifying specific genetic traits within ethnic groups gets more and more meaningless.

    There are growing movements worldwide demanding racial purity, and Nazis are back (who’d have thunk), but their motives are that of spoiled children.

  7. Top | #17
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    With such a mixing of cultures and people, especially now with human migration accelerating, I think any attempts at identifying specific genetic traits within ethnic groups gets more and more meaningless.

    There are growing movements worldwide demanding racial purity, and Nazis are back (who’d have thunk), but their motives are that of spoiled children.
    And completely hopeless. We're all African.

  8. Top | #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    With such a mixing of cultures and people, especially now with human migration accelerating, I think any attempts at identifying specific genetic traits within ethnic groups gets more and more meaningless.
    Agreed. Where there are actual racial traits (for example, blacks being taller) the effects are basically meaningless other than at the extremes, or in cases of genetic disorders. Gather a room full of people and you're not going to see a difference between blacks and whites, it's drowned out by the noise. Take the very extremes (the NBA) and you'll see the difference.

    In practice, what we normally see are cultural differences. It's not that the Chinese are smarter, it's that they value education more. That's passed by nurture, not by genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    With such a mixing of cultures and people, especially now with human migration accelerating, I think any attempts at identifying specific genetic traits within ethnic groups gets more and more meaningless.

    There are growing movements worldwide demanding racial purity, and Nazis are back (who’d have thunk), but their motives are that of spoiled children.
    And completely hopeless. We're all African.
    African is Old World. I'm new, how can I be African?

  10. Top | #20
    Contributor Trausti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    In practice, what we normally see are cultural differences. It's not that the Chinese are smarter, it's that they value education more. That's passed by nurture, not by genetics.
    Where do you think culture comes from? In any case, there's been many decades and billions of dollars spent on educational intervention with little effect.

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