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Thread: Christians Who Deny the Veracity of the Old Testament

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    Christians Who Deny the Veracity of the Old Testament

    I know it's pointless debating Christians but sometimes I just can't help myself. One issue I often come across is the denial of the Old Testament's relevance and veracity on the basis that the New Testament replaced it, thus with a wave of the hand avoiding having to explain the lunacy of the Old Testament.

    What would your reply be in such a situation?

    Edit for clarification:
    When I say 'veracity' I mean in the Christian sense. The actual veracity of the bible is not the intended discussion point.
    Last edited by AJ113; 05-28-2019 at 09:21 AM.

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    If they didn't need it to validate the new testament, many would love to bury the old where nobody could find it. Instead you get a bunch of squirming and tap dancing around just how vile the whole thing actually is.

    The "it was of the time it was written" excuse makes me want to bring back the lions.

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    Yet the foundation of the NT rests on the idea of original sin, blood sacrifice and consequently, the need for a redeemer, the Lamb of God.

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    What are you trying to accomplish?

    Do you want to convince them that it's unlikely a 900 year old man built a boat, loaded two of every kind of animal and then rode out a 40 day flood?

    You probably need some kind of thesis statement which can be debated, but the Old Testament is fairly broad in scope.

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    The easiest tactic, assuming you're trying to tilt with them (always, always a fool's errand) is to say that the OT is, of course, Jesus' scripture. He quotes from about two dozen of the books, says that he has not come to remove one jot and tittle of the commandments (which obviously doesn't square with other aspects of his ministry), tells the apostles that they will be the reinstitution of the 12 tribes of Israel, tells them to preach only to Jews...in the words of the scholarly Tim LaHaye of Left Behind notoriety, Jesus has "credentialed" the OT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronzeage View Post
    Do you want to convince them that it's unlikely a 900 year old man built a boat, loaded two of every kind of animal and then rode out a 40 day flood?
    No, the other way around. Even Christians (at least the ones I talk to) agree that this kind of OT stuff is bizarre, so they get round the issue by saying that the OT was repudiated by Jesus (even though it wasn't) and is therefore not allowed to be brought to the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ideologyhunter View Post
    The easiest tactic, assuming you're trying to tilt with them (always, always a fool's errand) is to say that the OT is, of course, Jesus' scripture. He quotes from about two dozen of the books, says that he has not come to remove one jot and tittle of the commandments (which obviously doesn't square with other aspects of his ministry), tells the apostles that they will be the reinstitution of the 12 tribes of Israel, tells them to preach only to Jews...in the words of the scholarly Tim LaHaye of Left Behind notoriety, Jesus has "credentialed" the OT.
    Yes this is what I usually bring to the debate, I just wondered if there were arguments other than this one that would challenge their claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Yet the foundation of the NT rests on the idea of original sin, blood sacrifice and consequently, the need for a redeemer, the Lamb of God.
    Yes this is pretty fundamental to the entire religion, a very good point.

    I don't know the bible well enough (although I should, having been a practising catholic for the first forty years of my life) but I'm wondering if there are anomalies and in the NT that match those of the OT in terms of outlandishness.
    Last edited by AJ113; 05-28-2019 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Missed a quote.

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    Jesus repeatedly and consistently stated that everything in the OT was the infallible word of God. And he explicitly rejected the excuse by modern Christians that the NT is a replacement for the OT. Matthew 5:17 claims that Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." That "Law" was the OT and "every stroke of pen" in it.

    To treat anything in the OT as other than God's word and Jesus' own will is to reject the NT as well. So, it is logically impossible to be Christian and not fully accept the OT, and also any admission of problems with the OT is inherently a criticism of Jesus himself.

    Here are some more quotes from Jesus regarding the divine truth of the OT:

    ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Mark 7:13). Then in countless places he refers to the stories of the OT (Cain and Abel, Moses, Lot, etc.) as unassailable truth as they were written and makes no revisions to them.

    If anything, the NT was written after Jesus died, so he never said anything to verify the divinity of what is in the NT. So it is dishonest and self-contradictory for any "Christian" to even treat the NT as more important than the OT, let alone dismiss anything in the OT as not part of Jesus' teachings.

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    Super Moderator Bronzeage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ113 View Post

    No, the other way around. Even Christians (at least the ones I talk to) agree that this kind of OT stuff is bizarre, so they get round the issue by saying that the OT was repudiated by Jesus (even though it wasn't) and is therefore not allowed to be brought to the debate.

    Yes this is what I usually bring to the debate, I just wondered if there were arguments other than this one that would challenge their claim.
    What Jesus said in Scripture was "For verily I say unto you, Till. heaven and earth pass, one jot or one. tittle shall in no wise pass from. the law, till all be fulfilled". I don't know of any other quotes which expand this to all the Hebrew texts which existed at that time.

    There is a distinct difference between "The Law" and the narrative histories told in other books of the Old Testament.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Jesus repeatedly and consistently stated that everything in the OT was the infallible word of God. And he explicitly rejected the excuse by modern Christians that the NT is a replacement for the OT. Matthew 5:17 claims that Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." That "Law" was the OT and "every stroke of pen" in it.

    To treat anything in the OT as other than God's word and Jesus' own will is to reject the NT as well. So, it is logically impossible to be Christian and not fully accept the OT, and also any admission of problems with the OT is inherently a criticism of Jesus himself.

    Here are some more quotes from Jesus regarding the divine truth of the OT:

    ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Mark 7:13). Then in countless places he refers to the stories of the OT (Cain and Abel, Moses, Lot, etc.) as unassailable truth as they were written and makes no revisions to them.

    If anything, the NT was written after Jesus died, so he never said anything to verify the divinity of what is in the NT. So it is dishonest and self-contradictory for any "Christian" to even treat the NT as more important than the OT, let alone dismiss anything in the OT as not part of Jesus' teachings.
    Most excellent post Ron, very powerful, thank you.

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    Every single Christian cherry picks parts of the Bible here and there to view as accurate which conform to whatever they view as moral and brushes off the rest as being metaphorical or something that only applied to ancient societies or something that they just straight up ignore.

    Having a larger section of it which they completely ignore doesn't make them fundamentally different from any other Christians who cherry pick a little bit here and there out of those ignored sections.

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