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Thread: Christians Who Deny the Veracity of the Old Testament

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Every single Christian cherry picks parts of the Bible here and there to view as accurate which conform to whatever they view as moral and brushes off the rest as being metaphorical or something that only applied to ancient societies or something that they just straight up ignore.

    Having a larger section of it which they completely ignore doesn't make them fundamentally different from any other Christians who cherry pick a little bit here and there out of those ignored sections.
    True, all Christians are dishonest, self-contradicting hypocrites, for whom the label "Christian" means "I make up whatever is convenient for me and pretend that is "Christian". Those who disregard the OT are just one manifestation of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Having a larger section of it which they completely ignore doesn't make them fundamentally different from any other Christians who cherry pick a little bit here and there out of those ignored sections.
    Agreed of course. But the purpose of the thread was to get down to specifics - i.e. Christians' denial of the OT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ113 View Post
    I know it's pointless debating Christians but sometimes I just can't help myself. One issue I often come across is the denial of the Old Testament's relevance and veracity on the basis that the New Testament replaced it, thus with a wave of the hand avoiding having to explain the lunacy of the Old Testament.

    What would your reply be in such a situation?

    Edit for clarification:
    When I say 'veracity' I mean in the Christian sense. The actual veracity of the bible is not the intended discussion point.
    I tend to agree, though I think everyone ought to be familiar with the Hebrew Scriptures, even if they aren't trying to enforce them as some kind of theocracy. It is, to my mind, a basic matter of responsible citizenship to know and understand the major religious texts that your fellow-citizens hold in reverence.

    I also do not believe that the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures necessarily contradict one another; it is obvious that the writers of the New Testament were aware of and revered the "Old" one. If your reading of the meaning of the NT involves erasing the HS, you are applying a very questionable hermeneutic in my opinion. Even calling the HS the "Old Testament" is more than a little bit antisemitic in my opinion, so I do so only when necessary for clarification. Christianity began as a Jewish sect, and should respect those roots as well as their siblings in faith who are now living.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Every single Christian cherry picks parts of the Bible here and there to view as accurate which conform to whatever they view as moral and brushes off the rest as being metaphorical or something that only applied to ancient societies or something that they just straight up ignore.
    I've never understood why this would be seen as a moral failing by any thinking person. What sort of a world would we live in if no one employed their individual conscience in deciding what moral rules to follow and which to disregard? Blind obedience is only called a virtue by those who are weak of will or politically ambitious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Every single Christian cherry picks parts of the Bible here and there to view as accurate which conform to whatever they view as moral and brushes off the rest as being metaphorical or something that only applied to ancient societies or something that they just straight up ignore.
    I've never understood why this would be seen as a moral failing by any thinking person. What sort of a world would we live in if no one employed their individual conscience in deciding what moral rules to follow and which to disregard? Blind obedience is only called a virtue by those who are weak of will or politically ambitious.
    I totally agree.

    But the Bible praises those who practiced blind obedience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Every single Christian cherry picks parts of the Bible here and there to view as accurate which conform to whatever they view as moral and brushes off the rest as being metaphorical or something that only applied to ancient societies or something that they just straight up ignore.
    I've never understood why this would be seen as a moral failing by any thinking person. What sort of a world would we live in if no one employed their individual conscience in deciding what moral rules to follow and which to disregard?
    If you decide to follow your own moral values instead of those prescribed by your religion, aren't you rejecting that religion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Every single Christian cherry picks parts of the Bible here and there to view as accurate which conform to whatever they view as moral and brushes off the rest as being metaphorical or something that only applied to ancient societies or something that they just straight up ignore.
    I've never understood why this would be seen as a moral failing by any thinking person. What sort of a world would we live in if no one employed their individual conscience in deciding what moral rules to follow and which to disregard? Blind obedience is only called a virtue by those who are weak of will or politically ambitious.
    It’s not a moral failing by a thinking person and nobody has ever characterized it as such.

    What it is is a comment on the lie told by Christians that the Bible is a source of morality for them. It’s not. They get their morality from the society around them just like the rest of us and cherry pick out individual passages in the Bible which reinforce that and ignore the passages which do not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ113 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Every single Christian cherry picks parts of the Bible here and there to view as accurate which conform to whatever they view as moral and brushes off the rest as being metaphorical or something that only applied to ancient societies or something that they just straight up ignore.
    I've never understood why this would be seen as a moral failing by any thinking person. What sort of a world would we live in if no one employed their individual conscience in deciding what moral rules to follow and which to disregard?
    If you decide to follow your own moral values instead of those prescribed by your religion, aren't you rejecting that religion?
    If a religion indeed promotes such behavior, then it is rightly to be rejected.

    I don't think most Christians give the matter a lot of thought, but their actions in public life suggest that most do not make any attempt to "religiously" follow every passage of either the Christian or Hebrew Scriptures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ113 View Post
    I know it's pointless debating Christians but sometimes I just can't help myself. One issue I often come across is the denial of the Old Testament's relevance and veracity on the basis that the New Testament replaced it, thus with a wave of the hand avoiding having to explain the lunacy of the Old Testament.

    What would your reply be in such a situation?

    Edit for clarification:
    When I say 'veracity' I mean in the Christian sense. The actual veracity of the bible is not the intended discussion point.
    That depends on whether they believe the events depicted actually happened, that the OT law was actually given by the biblical creator to the ancient Israelites, etc. As long as they believe that, then I would argue on that basis that the biblical creator is not God (i.e., not omnipotent, omniscient, morally perfect, on account of not being morally perfect), but rather, supervillain - he's a Thanos, or Dr. Doom, or someone like that (details in my moral case against Christianity).

    If they have no stance as to whether that is the law given by the biblical creator, etc., then for the same reasons given above, I would argue they should not have the belief that the biblical creator is good - at least, they should remain agnostic on the subject.

    Finally, if they deny that that is the law of the biblical creator, deny that the events happen, etc., then I would probably leave it aside and just target another part of Christianity - one they accept. If they accept a part that links back to the OT, then I would still target the OT, but only after showing them that some of their beliefs do imply that OT law was in fact given to the ancient Israelites,l or that Jesus approved of it, etc. Else, I would just use whatever they accept to make my argument against their particular brand of Christianity.

  10. Top | #20
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    To be a Christian you need "only" to, adhere to the NT i.e. as according to Jesus, which doesn't actually deny the veracity of the OT at all - depending on the individual. Of course this means there are Christians who may not be able to explain or understand those parts of the OT that sound a little conflicting with what they understand of the N.T.. I'd say also, that its not neccessary to "know" every detail of the O.T. although Christians may not have the required answer when they're asked certain questions of the type, similar to the OP. They'll lose points in a debate but should be "No big-deal" really, if they follow according to the NT (in time perhaps - they'll learn more, which does happen to quite a few believers).



    *Edit: As long as they remember: Jesus validates the OT.

    I'm sure and agree, that there are some who do "deny" the veracity of the OT to some degree as the OP points out.
    Last edited by Learner; 05-29-2019 at 07:57 AM. Reason: clrty

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