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Thread: Christians Who Deny the Veracity of the Old Testament

  1. Top | #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Every single Christian cherry picks parts of the Bible here and there to view as accurate which conform to whatever they view as moral and brushes off the rest as being metaphorical or something that only applied to ancient societies or something that they just straight up ignore.
    I've never understood why this would be seen as a moral failing by any thinking person. What sort of a world would we live in if no one employed their individual conscience in deciding what moral rules to follow and which to disregard? Blind obedience is only called a virtue by those who are weak of will or politically ambitious.
    It’s not a moral failing by a thinking person and nobody has ever characterized it as such.

    What it is is a comment on the lie told by Christians that the Bible is a source of morality for them. It’s not. They get their morality from the society around them just like the rest of us and cherry pick out individual passages in the Bible which reinforce that and ignore the passages which do not.
    Agreed. Using one's own thinking to derive a moral system is not only not a failing, it's a moral requirement. To defer to some authoritarian system (such as the Bible or a religion) for ethics is a moral failing, as is trying to promote the idea that such authorities should be deferred to. So, the moral failing of Christians (and all theists) is that they do a combination of all these and then lie about it in order to claim moral certainty while avoiding personal responsibility for their own moral stances (just following orders).

    Basically, theists mindlessly accept some of their morals on Biblical/religious authority, but base some morals on secular ethics or natural empathy while asserting that these are also based on religious authority and therefore generally promoting authoritarianism which enables highly immoral actions and stifles moral progress.

  2. Top | #22
    Veteran Member James Brown's Avatar
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    Let's not forget the Christians who deny the veracity of the New Testament as well.

  3. Top | #23
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    So, the moral failing of Christians (and all theists) is that they do a combination of all these and then lie about it in order to claim moral certainty while avoiding personal responsibility for their own moral stances (just following orders).

    Basically, theists mindlessly accept some of their morals on Biblical/religious authority, but base some morals on secular ethics or natural empathy while asserting that these are also based on religious authority and therefore generally promoting authoritarianism which enables highly immoral actions and stifles moral progress.
    On what basis are you making this claim? Personal anecdote? It doesn't sound like any cohesive Christian perspective I have ever heard of, more like a bunch of bits and pieces confusedly jumbled together from different communities and traditions.

  4. Top | #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    To be a Christian you need "only" to, adhere to the NT i.e. as according to Jesus, which doesn't actually deny the veracity of the OT at all - depending on the individual. Of course this means there are Christians who may not be able to explain or understand those parts of the OT that sound a little conflicting with what they understand of the N.T.. I'd say also, that its not neccessary to "know" every detail of the O.T. although Christians may not have the required answer when they're asked certain questions of the type, similar to the OP. They'll lose points in a debate but should be "No big-deal" really, if they follow according to the NT (in time perhaps - they'll learn more, which does happen to quite a few believers).



    *Edit: As long as they remember: Jesus validates the OT.

    I'm sure and agree, that there are some who do "deny" the veracity of the OT to some degree as the OP points out.
    If, "To be a Christian you need "only" to, adhere to the NT i.e. as according to Jesus, which doesn't actually deny the veracity of the OT at all - depending on the individual.", that means that a sufficient condition for being a Christian is to adhere to the NT, but it does not tell you that a necessary one is not to reject the veracity of some or all of the OT. In other words, what you say is compatible with a person being a Christian and denying that the laws in the OT where coming from the biblical creator (partly or entirely). Those are some of the cases we are talking about.

  5. Top | #25
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    If it says "Jesus did not come to destroy the laws of the prophets, etc," then thats what it means, validating the OT. Jesus's two greatest commandments for example, hangs "all the laws of the prophets", when someone abides and follow these two laws, then he or she will be actually in-line with the previous laws made by the other prophets, (perhaps, oddly enough, without them (believers) realizing it including the atheists - not getting it).




    (BTW I accept all of the OT as well as the NT, I'm not alone).
    Last edited by Learner; 05-29-2019 at 10:21 PM.

  6. Top | #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    (I accept all of the OT as well as the NT BTW , I'm not alone).

    Wow, that would make you among the most immoral, violent, homophobic, sexist, assholes in the modern world. How, many women have you stoned to death for not being virgins upon marriage?
    The sake of those (especially women) around you, I hope that claim is total bullshit, as it is with 99.99999% of Christians.

  7. Top | #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    (I accept all of the OT as well as the NT BTW , I'm not alone).

    Wow, that would make you among the most immoral, violent, homophobic, sexist, assholes in the modern world. How, many women have you stoned to death for not being virgins upon marriage?
    The sake of those (especially women) around you, I hope that claim is total bullshit, as it is with 99.99999% of Christians.
    Only according to you (plural) and your own biblical pov.

  8. Top | #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    (I accept all of the OT as well as the NT BTW , I'm not alone).

    Wow, that would make you among the most immoral, violent, homophobic, sexist, assholes in the modern world. How, many women have you stoned to death for not being virgins upon marriage?
    The sake of those (especially women) around you, I hope that claim is total bullshit, as it is with 99.99999% of Christians.
    Only according to you (plural) and your own biblical pov.
    IOW, you are dishonest like all Christians, and you lie about the clear cut commands in the OT and pretend that they don't mean what they explicitly and unambiguously say. IOW, you ignore the Bible, invent you own ethics, then pretend that whatever the Bible says matches what you made up.

  9. Top | #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    Only according to you (plural) and your own biblical pov.
    IOW, you are dishonest like all Christians, and you lie about the clear cut commands in the OT and pretend that they don't mean what they explicitly and unambiguously say. IOW, you ignore the Bible, invent you own ethics, then pretend that whatever the Bible says matches what you made up.
    If its something you like/ need something, to have a grip with, to make false notions, perhaps because the OT is not ignored as you like to think by all Chrsitians, then its understandble.

  10. Top | #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    If it says "Jesus did not come to destroy the laws of the prophets, etc," then thats what it means, validating the OT. Jesus's two greatest commandments for example, hangs "all the laws of the prophets", when someone abides and follow these two laws, then he or she will be actually in-line with the previous laws made by the other prophets, (perhaps, oddly enough, without them (believers) realizing it including the atheists - not getting it).




    (BTW I accept all of the OT as well as the NT, I'm not alone).
    Learner, I am not suggesting that Jesus tried to destroy the laws of the prophets. What I'm saying is that what you said before is compatible with a person's being a Christian while denying that the laws of the OT (or part of them) came from the biblical creator. Now, I think you, on a correct interpretation of the NT, Jesus implied (and, in some cases, said) that the laws of the OT came from the biblical creator. However, many people disagree with that assessment. I think they are mistaken, but that is another matter. Moreover, a person can adhere to the NT, and then reject the OT even in the parts in which Jesus specifically validated the OT - how? By being inconsistent. People can be inconsistent in their beliefs, but still meet your condition for being a Christian as far as I can tell (unless I misunderstood?).

    Please clarify. My question would be: suppose Joe believes and sincerely says that he adheres to the teachings of Jesus in the NT, and calls himself a Christian. Joe also believes that much of the laws of the OT (at least) were not given to the ancient Israelites by the biblical creator, but were bad laws introduced by people into the Bible. Would you say that that person is a Christian?
    If your answer is 'yes', then those are (some of) the Christians we are talking about.
    If your answer is 'no', please let me know.

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