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Thread: Iranians are becoming more and more secularized

  1. Top | #11
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    I would dispute the idea that Saudi Arabia doesn't contain quite a lot of diversity. The Wahabist philosphy of the ruling house comes from the central part of the country. The Hejaz and Gulf coasts are quite culturally distinct. I suspect that even within these regions, there are many interesting differences.

    I agree with the central argument that there's a lot going on in Iran culturally, and they are poorly represented by their religious government. However, I don't see the need to bash the Saudis in the process. The Saudis are also poorly served by their anachronistic absolute monarchy. I hope that both countries find something better, and that peace can result. For my part, I see no reason to take sides in the Sunni-Shia conflict.
    Very true.

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    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
    I would dispute the idea that Saudi Arabia doesn't contain quite a lot of diversity. The Wahabist philosphy of the ruling house comes from the central part of the country. The Hejaz and Gulf coasts are quite culturally distinct. I suspect that even within these regions, there are many interesting differences.

    I agree with the central argument that there's a lot going on in Iran culturally, and they are poorly represented by their religious government. However, I don't see the need to bash the Saudis in the process. The Saudis are also poorly served by their anachronistic absolute monarchy. I hope that both countries find something better, and that peace can result. For my part, I see no reason to take sides in the Sunni-Shia conflict.
    I assume that this means that you also see no reason to militarily take sides in the Roman Catholic / Greek Orthodox split either.

  3. Top | #13
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    The Saudi king in the past made a deal with the ultraconservatives for support. The quid pro quo was teaching Wahabianism in schools and exporting abroad. The Saudi funded Madrasa schools in the USA have long been known to be anti west Wahabianism.

    There was a democracy movement in Iran that was killed by the installation of the shah. In part the ISA feared nationalization of oil.

    Before that Americans were highly regarded. An American missionary died defending a group of democrat's. I was told by Iranians he was a hero, streets named after him.

    The Shah was brutal but also liberal to a degree. Women had some autonomy.

  4. Top | #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tammuz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    You have to look at history. Iran has a long and rich history. Iranians feel it.

    Saudi Arabi cane out of tribal warfare by essentialy camel jockeys. I can say that not being a politician.

    The Saudi constitution enshrines the Saudi family and king as 'defender of the faith'. That is the fundamental divide and source of conflict in the r4egion. Persians and Arabs both claiming to be the true inheritors of Mohammed. It goes back to the early days of Islam. When oil was discovered he capped the wells, he thought it would be a corrupting influence. Saudi Wahabianism is ultra conservative and anti west.

    Take away sanctions from Iran and they would like become an economic power in the region, they are poised for it. The Saudis are still playing medieval palace intrigue.

    Saudi culture began with the first Saudi king. No intellectual traditions, only the Koran. Before that they were nomads. Think of them as the Beverly Hillbillies of the mid east.
    Racism aside, Saudi Arabia's creation was no different in basic character than that of any other imperial nation.
    I think what he meant was that the identity of Saudi Arabia is pretty much only (Salafist) Islam. Iran has a broader, more multi-faceted culture that the mullahs are unable to eradicate.
    Thank you. Culture and history is everything. China's rebound for example. There have been reports on SA men. They have been on the oil dole so long it is difficult to get anything out of them. They have long imputed foreign form the bottom to top to work.

    They build ridiculous projects that fail. Their wealth is all unearned.

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    Contributor repoman's Avatar
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    Does this mean that in 50 years from now that there will be lots of new immigrant radical Hindus and Christians in Iran protesting against LGBT content for elementary school students while the nominal Shias don't care?

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    Quote Originally Posted by repoman View Post
    Does this mean that in 50 years from now that there will be lots of new immigrant radical Hindus and Christians in Iran protesting against LGBT content for elementary school students while the nominal Shias don't care?
    From reporting from Iran during periods of protests Iranians do not want to do away with Islam, they want to reduce the power of the clerics.

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    Veteran Member funinspace's Avatar
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    FWIW (an antidote), my dad was friends in college circa 1950 with 3 Iranians, and they were very secular. Yes, that is before we installed the Shaw. My dad repeated many times a comment by them, something like "the US would be foolish to stick its neck very deep into ME politics/religion as it can get religiously crazy".

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    Quote Originally Posted by funinspace View Post
    FWIW (an antidote), my dad was friends in college circa 1950 with 3 Iranians, and they were very secular. Yes, that is before we installed the Shaw. My dad repeated many times a comment by them, something like "the US would be foolish to stick its neck very deep into ME politics/religion as it can get religiously crazy".
    You will never hear a political comment that our installation of the shah resulted in the revolution and the rise of the theocracy.

  9. Top | #19
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by repoman View Post
    Does this mean that in 50 years from now that there will be lots of new immigrant radical Hindus and Christians in Iran protesting against LGBT content for elementary school students while the nominal Shias don't care?
    There will be a lot fewer Iranian muslims, that's for certain. They read more and know their hero Mohammed wasn't born in Mecca, and that their holy book is full of problems. That's the nice thing about cultural exchange.

  10. Top | #20
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    Don’t worry. All we have to do is bomb the crap out of them. The they'll convert to Christianity as practiced by FFvC.

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