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Thread: The Thirty Meter Telescope - construction will begin

  1. Top | #11
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Trying to bypass the legal process, creating an expensive decade long fiasco and losing public sentiment by aiding in the suppression of a recently conquered people was rational? How?

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    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Trying to bypass the legal process, creating an expensive decade long fiasco and losing public sentiment by aiding in the suppression of a recently conquered people was rational? How?
    King Kamehameha was the first to conquer all the other kings and subjugate the Hawaiians on all the islands of the archipelago. All world history is about one group conquering another group. If you want to read about brutal suppression then you need to read the history of the spread of warlike groups of Polynesians.

    But then this has nothing to do with the rational reasoning for why Mauna Kea is an ideal site for a better telescope than the thirteen that are already there.

  3. Top | #13
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Religious significance is meaningless.

    If the locals own the land, they get to say what happens there. If they don't, they don't.

    It doesn't matter whether it's sacred; But it does matter whether it's theirs.

    So, is it theirs?

    We have a similar debate in Australia about tourism at Uluru (Ayers Rock). The owners don't want people to climb the rock. After years of just asking them to not climb it, they have had enough, and said 'no more'. Apparently this is controversial - but it shouldn't be. There's a great view from the roof of my garden shed. It's not a sacred shed, but if a bunch of tourists turned up demanding to be allowed to climb it, I would tell them to fuck off.

    If these Hawaiian natives gave up ownership in a sale or treaty, then the mountain isn't theirs anymore, and they get no say. If they didn't, then it is theirs, and they get to say no for any reason (or no reason other than 'fuck off, it's my land').

    So which is it?

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Religious significance is meaningless.

    If the locals own the land, they get to say what happens there. If they don't, they don't.

    It doesn't matter whether it's sacred; But it does matter whether it's theirs.

    So, is it theirs?

    We have a similar debate in Australia about tourism at Uluru (Ayers Rock). The owners don't want people to climb the rock. After years of just asking them to not climb it, they have had enough, and said 'no more'. Apparently this is controversial - but it shouldn't be. There's a great view from the roof of my garden shed. It's not a sacred shed, but if a bunch of tourists turned up demanding to be allowed to climb it, I would tell them to fuck off.

    If these Hawaiian natives gave up ownership in a sale or treaty, then the mountain isn't theirs anymore, and they get no say. If they didn't, then it is theirs, and they get to say no for any reason (or no reason other than 'fuck off, it's my land').

    So which is it?
    Not only did the Hawaiian people never surrender their sovereignty or agree to a transfer of land (which in the case of Mauna Kea would have been a straight up heretical to consider), Congress actually passed a measure to acknowledge this and weakly apologized for the theft, in 1993. And by state law in cases of major building projects on government-owned land, Native Hawaiians are supposed to have a right to consultation and (unfortunately quite vaguely defined) shared governance. I note that the committee is not requesting the destruction of the eleven telescopes that are already there, just a moratorium on further construction, which by the tacit admission of astronomers otherwise will never stop as long as technology keeps advancing and there is still an acre or two to fill on top of the mountain.

  5. Top | #15
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Trying to bypass the legal process, creating an expensive decade long fiasco and losing public sentiment by aiding in the suppression of a recently conquered people was rational? How?
    King Kamehameha was the first to conquer all the other kings and subjugate the Hawaiians on all the islands of the archipelago. All world history is about one group conquering another group. If you want to read about brutal suppression then you need to read the history of the spread of warlike groups of Polynesians.

    But then this has nothing to do with the rational reasoning for why Mauna Kea is an ideal site for a better telescope than the thirteen that are already there.
    So if I decide that the pond in the backyard is an ideal place for studying salamanders, can I build a facility there without first purchasing it from you, which involves ripping up a fair chunk of the rest of your backyard as well? Why or why not? Shouldn't having a worthy scientific goal supersede your property rights, too?

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    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Trying to bypass the legal process, creating an expensive decade long fiasco and losing public sentiment by aiding in the suppression of a recently conquered people was rational? How?
    King Kamehameha was the first to conquer all the other kings and subjugate the Hawaiians on all the islands of the archipelago. All world history is about one group conquering another group. If you want to read about brutal suppression then you need to read the history of the spread of warlike groups of Polynesians.

    But then this has nothing to do with the rational reasoning for why Mauna Kea is an ideal site for a better telescope than the thirteen that are already there.
    So if I decide that the pond in the backyard is an ideal place for studying salamanders, can I build a facility there without first purchasing it from you, which involves ripping up a fair chunk of the rest of your backyard as well? Why or why not? Shouldn't having a worthy scientific goal supersede your property rights, too?
    If you and your army conquered the U.S. and imposed your own laws then, yes you would be able to do whatever the fuck you want.

  7. Top | #17
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    So if I decide that the pond in the backyard is an ideal place for studying salamanders, can I build a facility there without first purchasing it from you, which involves ripping up a fair chunk of the rest of your backyard as well? Why or why not? Shouldn't having a worthy scientific goal supersede your property rights, too?
    If you and your army conquered the U.S. and imposed your own laws then, yes you would be able to do whatever the fuck you want.
    So you are an unashamed apologist for imperialism. I appreciate the uncommon honesty, but the protestors still disagree with you.

    Would you agree that the Hawaiians ought to be arming themselves, then, rather than peacefully protesting and pursuing legal solutions as they have been doing? If they want control of Mauna Kea and violence is the only legitimate means of acquiring it, then shouldn't they be preparing for war? Have they been mistaken in their approach this whole time?

  8. Top | #18
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    So if I decide that the pond in the backyard is an ideal place for studying salamanders, can I build a facility there without first purchasing it from you, which involves ripping up a fair chunk of the rest of your backyard as well? Why or why not? Shouldn't having a worthy scientific goal supersede your property rights, too?
    If you and your army conquered the U.S. and imposed your own laws then, yes you would be able to do whatever the fuck you want.
    So you are an unashamed apologist for imperialism. I appreciate the uncommon honesty, but the protestors still disagree with you.
    I am not an apologist. I am a realist. I recognize how the world works and even when it works against what I consider "right", I know that the world doesn't really give a shit what I think should be. I am not enough of an egomaniac to believe that the world would care what I think.

    ETA:
    I see you added a second paragraph after I posted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Would you agree that the Hawaiians ought to be arming themselves, then, rather than peacefully protesting and pursuing legal solutions as they have been doing? If they want control of Mauna Kea and violence is the only legitimate means of acquiring it, then shouldn't they be preparing for war? Have they been mistaken in their approach this whole time?
    Only if they are complete idiots. Rational people tend to know when they have lost.
    Last edited by skepticalbip; 07-17-2019 at 03:10 PM.

  9. Top | #19
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    ...
    I am not an apologist. I am a realist. I recognize how the world works and even when it works against what I consider "right", I know that the world doesn't really give a shit what I think should be. I am not enough of an egomaniac to believe that the world would care what I think.
    After 17,651 posts you've finally figured that out?

  10. Top | #20
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    So you are an unashamed apologist for imperialism. I appreciate the uncommon honesty, but the protestors still disagree with you.
    I am not an apologist. I am a realist. I recognize how the world works and even when it works against what I consider "right", I know that the world doesn't really give a shit what I think should be. I am not enough of an egomaniac to believe that the world would care what I think.
    Then be a realist about this, and acknowledge thst the protesters are not going to leave the mountain, and that no one gives a shit about the scientific merit of an act of political violence. Be a realist, and see that with every passing year indigenous peoples are less and less willing to accept subjugation by imperial power regimes. If scientists do not realize this, they will find themselves engaged in constant political struggles like this one, in lieu of having time to study any scientific subject.

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