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Thread: Canada's new Air Passenger Protection Rules

  1. Top | #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    How early/late do people typically cancel? People who simply don't show up for their flight will leave empty seats with no chance to fill them. Or will this mean flying standby will become more of a thing again?

    If I show up when I want to fly and just sit around day after day, will a seat now open up and be mine for cheap?
    It depends. Southwest makes it very easy. They have flights Houston-Dallas every hour and don't charge to switch flights. If you get tot he airport 2 hours early you can try to jump on the next flight. I imagine they have 15 or 20 people every flight who don't take the flight they originally booked.

    Other airlines go out of their way to make their customers miserable. But it used to be a business traveler on a refundable fare could do this on other airlines to a degree as well.

    The other big source of no shows I imagine is late connections.

  2. Top | #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dismal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    How early/late do people typically cancel? People who simply don't show up for their flight will leave empty seats with no chance to fill them. Or will this mean flying standby will become more of a thing again?

    If I show up when I want to fly and just sit around day after day, will a seat now open up and be mine for cheap?
    It depends. Southwest makes it very easy. They have flights Houston-Dallas every hour and don't charge to switch flights. If you get tot he airport 2 hours early you can try to jump on the next flight. I imagine they have 15 or 20 people every flight who don't take the flight they originally booked.

    Other airlines go out of their way to make their customers miserable. But it used to be a business traveler on a refundable fare could do this on other airlines to a degree as well.

    The other big source of no shows I imagine is late connections.
    That seem to apply to frequent local flights. I'm concerned with the expensive flights to the other side of the planet. If I could save a few hundred dollars on a $1000+ flight ticket by showing up and waiting and taking a seat last minute that would otherwise be empty, should one be available, that would be great.

  3. Top | #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dismal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    How early/late do people typically cancel? People who simply don't show up for their flight will leave empty seats with no chance to fill them. Or will this mean flying standby will become more of a thing again?

    If I show up when I want to fly and just sit around day after day, will a seat now open up and be mine for cheap?
    It depends. Southwest makes it very easy. They have flights Houston-Dallas every hour and don't charge to switch flights. If you get tot he airport 2 hours early you can try to jump on the next flight. I imagine they have 15 or 20 people every flight who don't take the flight they originally booked.

    Other airlines go out of their way to make their customers miserable. But it used to be a business traveler on a refundable fare could do this on other airlines to a degree as well.

    The other big source of no shows I imagine is late connections.
    That seem to apply to frequent local flights. I'm concerned with the expensive flights to the other side of the planet. If I could save a few hundred dollars on a $1000+ flight ticket by showing up and waiting and taking a seat last minute that would otherwise be empty, should one be available, that would be great.
    They used to sell standby fares that were at a discount like that but it sounds like they don't anymore. Sites like priceline seem to advertise last minute discount tickets so maybe that's the closest thing these days.

  4. Top | #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dismal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post

    That seem to apply to frequent local flights. I'm concerned with the expensive flights to the other side of the planet. If I could save a few hundred dollars on a $1000+ flight ticket by showing up and waiting and taking a seat last minute that would otherwise be empty, should one be available, that would be great.
    They used to sell standby fares that were at a discount like that but it sounds like they don't anymore. Sites like priceline seem to advertise last minute discount tickets so maybe that's the closest thing these days.
    Yes. I remember standbys. I am curious if this will bring them back. If there are harsh penalties on airlines overselling then that may mean more empty seats, which may mean the return of standbys.

  5. Top | #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dismal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post

    That seem to apply to frequent local flights. I'm concerned with the expensive flights to the other side of the planet. If I could save a few hundred dollars on a $1000+ flight ticket by showing up and waiting and taking a seat last minute that would otherwise be empty, should one be available, that would be great.
    They used to sell standby fares that were at a discount like that but it sounds like they don't anymore. Sites like priceline seem to advertise last minute discount tickets so maybe that's the closest thing these days.
    Yes. I remember standbys. I am curious if this will bring them back. If there are harsh penalties on airlines overselling then that may mean more empty seats, which may mean the return of standbys.
    I think part of it may have also been the post 9-11 crackdown. I'm not sure they wanted people who weren't ticketed on flights milling about. They started requiring a boarding pass to get thru security, though you can still get thru with a boarding pass in which you don't have an assigned seat.

  6. Top | #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axulus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post

    The tickets are not the goods (those would be receipts)... the goods are the seats, and the number of them is unchanged.
    False. The tickets are what are being sold in the marketplace (which have conditions). The number available for sale will be reduced in Canada since airlines selling tickets there will overbook far fewer seats due to the government penalties, which means fewer tickets available to purchase, leading to price increases as a result of the reduced supply. More seats will also be empty due to the ineviatable no-shows on most flights. Basic logic and economics.
    Not because there are less seats but because they are selling the same seats fewer times. The "logic" is that if we need more apples, just sell broken promises for apples you don't have... and that will feed the world... Just like Jesus. You can transport half the country to the other half of the country in one airplane in one trip... talk about reducing carbon footprint... amazing!

    People who buy cheap tickets have paid for the seat whether they sit in it or not. The airline saves money with that paid-for empty seat in weight reduction, and they were PAID FOR THE SEAT.. They burn less fuel than planned due to the absent passenger.
    As for people who buy EXPENSIVE tickets that are refundable... they are expensive because they are refundable... the people who showed up for their flight also paid for other seats of people that may have refunded. That is the situation the airline has to predict as well as possible... how much to charge for REFUNDABLE tickets, based on how many they think will be refunded.

  7. Top | #27
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    I just don't want to pay more for my ticket because of these new regulations. I don't think that is an unreasonable concern.

  8. Top | #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dismal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    I don't see the problem with this. If they fuck over their passengers for the sake of making extra money, what's the issue with their being the ones who are saddled with paying extra expenses over situations where these passengers get fucked? 99 times out of 100, the policy allows them to maximize revenue for a flight and the other times they've been trying to squeeze people in order to keep as much of the extra money as possible.

    This is exactly the type of situation where regulations are necessary against an industry which refuses to police itself.
    Well, Penguin already mentioned the problem with it. Air travel will cost more. If they can't sell as many seats, the ones they do sell will be more expensive. All costs are ultimately borne by the consumer.
    Yes, and as a frequent consumer of flights, I am more concerned about the costs overall increasing on me than my luggage being lost or my flight being bumped.
    Yeah, but as a frequent flyer, you will never be the one who gets bumped and has your vacation ruined, costing you potentially thousands.

    Also, it won't actually mean that the airlines don't oversell tickets, thus won't increase the average ticket price by more than a couple bucks. They can and will still offer people $300 vouchers to "volunteer" their seat and most times that will work. The only time they will need to pay the $2400 is when the amount of delay till the next flight is so extreme and thus no one on the plane wants to take the voucher. And that is just the situation where the person who is unwillingly bumped deserves that level of compensation. And no, people won't "hold out" for the $2400 b/c they are not likely to be the person selected to get bumped, so refusing the voucher to get more $ won't work.

    And a lost piece of luggage on one's vacation is easily worth $2000 for the level of stress, hassle, $, and time it costs.
    These are inherent costs that the airlines should have always paid out and put into their costs of doing business. The fact that they have increased profits by unethically screwing people over and passed a small portion of their savings onto you, isn't a good argument for them to keep doing it. Want to lower flight costs without screwing other people over? Then support stronger regulations that prohibit the airline mergers that have caused skyrocketing prices and ever decreasing quality of service, comfort, etc..

  9. Top | #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    I just don't want to pay more for my ticket because of these new regulations. I don't think that is an unreasonable concern.
    All I am saying is that there is no reason that you should, due to these regulations, as they do not impact profitability of sales of actual seats... it only affects the "beyond profitability" of the practice of collecting more revenue than available product. I do agree that if they wish to provide the option for people to get refunds for cancellations, that the cost of REFUNDABLE seats can be whatever they deem necessary to cover the COSTS of them REFUNDING.

  10. Top | #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    I just don't want to pay more for my ticket because of these new regulations. I don't think that is an unreasonable concern.
    All I am saying is that there is no reason that you should, due to these regulations, as they do not impact profitability of sales of actual seats... it only affects the "beyond profitability" of the practice of collecting more revenue than available product. I do agree that if they wish to provide the option for people to get refunds for cancellations, that the cost of REFUNDABLE seats can be whatever they deem necessary to cover the COSTS of them REFUNDING.
    You're making irrelevant distinctions. The airlines have a revenue model. Part of the revenue model is they sell some number of excess seats on a given flight knowing there will likely be some no-shows. I would guess they have some algorithm that takes into account the historical distribution of no-shows, the cost of buying back seats from volunteers, the fare someone is willing to pay for the next incremental seat, etc etc, that determines how much they'll overbook a flight. So, for example, maybe it spits out an answer like "sell 4 more tickets than are available, then set the price to $800 and sell up to 2 more". Putting a $2000 fine on an oversold seat will change the calculus. They will sell fewer seats. They will have more empty seats. All other things being equal, they will get less revenue. Since their operating costs will not change, except for perhaps increasing as they pay occasional penalties they will likely attempt to make the lost revenue/higher cost back by charging more for the tickets they do sell. The only thing that would prevent them from doing so is competition. But since all other airlines are in the same boat essentially and will also be looking to recoup lost revenue, they should be able to pass this on to consumers.

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