View Poll Results: Will there EVER be a return to sanity/progressivism?

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16. You may not vote on this poll
  • after 2020

    1 6.25%
  • after 2024

    0 0%
  • after some future election

    1 6.25%
  • never

    5 31.25%
  • only after ecological or economic tragedy

    7 43.75%
  • after ecological or economic tragedy there will be full bore fascism

    2 12.50%
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Thread: Will The Oligarchy that owns the US eeeevvvvveerrrrrr be slightly reined in?

  1. Top | #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4321lynx View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    The problem is that a "fair and equitable society" is a contradiction.

    In a fair society people benefit from their efforts. In an equitable society people all have basically the same--they do not benefit from their efforts.
    Taxation can make a society that is too damn fair for the rich who are super-rich and seek to be even richer, a little more equitable. But it seems that power goes with the money and the rich 1% or so get tax relief one way or another, and the poor get the taxes, till "the revolution" happens and communist-brainwashed morons take over and start getting "rich" in their own fashion. The Nordics seem to have largely escaped that trap, but cracks in the system are beginning to show.
    In the US the outcome is unlikely to be communist, more likely a populist version with a leader slightly less stupid than Trump, but with the Party faithful morons sharing the gains just like the Communists elsewhere.

    And of course, the "fair society" rich do not make any effort to get richer, not beyond seeing that their accumulated capital is performing "satisfactorily" or better...
    You aren't addressing my point at all.

  2. Top | #72
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    The odd thing is that there seems to be no shortage of money at the top of the heap, mansions, yachts, planes, lavish lifestyles....yet heaven forbid that a cleaner gets an extra dollar an hour because that would bring the national economy to its knees.....

  3. Top | #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    The odd thing is that there seems to be no shortage of money at the top of the heap, mansions, yachts, planes, lavish lifestyles....yet heaven forbid that a cleaner gets an extra dollar an hour because that would bring the national economy to its knees.....
    That's still not addressing my point.

  4. Top | #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    The odd thing is that there seems to be no shortage of money at the top of the heap, mansions, yachts, planes, lavish lifestyles....yet heaven forbid that a cleaner gets an extra dollar an hour because that would bring the national economy to its knees.....
    That's still not addressing my point.

  5. Top | #75
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    The odd thing is that there seems to be no shortage of money at the top of the heap, mansions, yachts, planes, lavish lifestyles....yet heaven forbid that a cleaner gets an extra dollar an hour because that would bring the national economy to its knees.....
    That's still not addressing my point.
    I'm pointing out that the running of a society isn't just about catering for the rich. Everyone needs a decent standard of life, and if someone is employed full time, doing productive work, benefiting society, contributing to the economy, this contribution in time, skill and effort should provide a decent standard of life.

  6. Top | #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    The odd thing is that there seems to be no shortage of money at the top of the heap, mansions, yachts, planes, lavish lifestyles....yet heaven forbid that a cleaner gets an extra dollar an hour because that would bring the national economy to its knees.....
    That's still not addressing my point.
    I'm pointing out that the running of a society isn't just about catering for the rich. Everyone needs a decent standard of life, and if someone is employed full time, doing productive work, benefiting society, contributing to the economy, this contribution in time, skill and effort should provide a decent standard of life.
    You're acting like a religious fanatic here.

  7. Top | #77
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    I'm pointing out that the running of a society isn't just about catering for the rich. Everyone needs a decent standard of life, and if someone is employed full time, doing productive work, benefiting society, contributing to the economy, this contribution in time, skill and effort should provide a decent standard of life.
    You're acting like a religious fanatic here.
    I don't think so. Everyone who does productive work is contributing to the running of a society, supplying the needs and wants of the population with their time, effort and skill, therefore need to be paid at least a livable income for menial jobs, with an ascending scale according to skill and risk.

    Just a fairer system, that's all. As we stand, there is too much 'reward' for the top percentage and far too little for the lowest paid.

  8. Top | #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    I'm pointing out that the running of a society isn't just about catering for the rich. Everyone needs a decent standard of life, and if someone is employed full time, doing productive work, benefiting society, contributing to the economy, this contribution in time, skill and effort should provide a decent standard of life.
    You're acting like a religious fanatic here.
    I don't think so. Everyone who does productive work is contributing to the running of a society, supplying the needs and wants of the population with their time, effort and skill, therefore need to be paid at least a livable income for menial jobs, with an ascending scale according to skill and risk.

    Just a fairer system, that's all. As we stand, there is too much 'reward' for the top percentage and far too little for the lowest paid.
    If everyone gets paid regardless then there's no incentive for the people at the bottom to do a decent job.

  9. Top | #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    I don't think so. Everyone who does productive work is contributing to the running of a society, supplying the needs and wants of the population with their time, effort and skill, therefore need to be paid at least a livable income for menial jobs, with an ascending scale according to skill and risk.

    Just a fairer system, that's all. As we stand, there is too much 'reward' for the top percentage and far too little for the lowest paid.
    If everyone gets paid regardless then there's no incentive for the people at the bottom to do a decent job.
    I mentioned an ascending pay scale according to skill and other factors, danger, risk, effects on health, etc, which would attract people because of the higher pay. Plus, do not discount the need for meaningful work, some want to be doctors or lawyers or engineers, astronauts, etc, for reasons other than money. Which is not to say that these occupations should not be well rewarded. I didn't say that.

  10. Top | #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    I don't think so. Everyone who does productive work is contributing to the running of a society, supplying the needs and wants of the population with their time, effort and skill, therefore need to be paid at least a livable income for menial jobs, with an ascending scale according to skill and risk.

    Just a fairer system, that's all. As we stand, there is too much 'reward' for the top percentage and far too little for the lowest paid.
    If everyone gets paid regardless then there's no incentive for the people at the bottom to do a decent job.
    I mentioned an ascending pay scale according to skill and other factors, danger, risk, effects on health, etc, which would attract people because of the higher pay. Plus, do not discount the need for meaningful work, some want to be doctors or lawyers or engineers, astronauts, etc, for reasons other than money. Which is not to say that these occupations should not be well rewarded. I didn't say that.
    The problem is you can't have it both ways. The money you want to distribute at the bottom is far more than what exists at the top that you could take even if you didn't mind the harm you would do in the process.

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