View Poll Results: Will there EVER be a return to sanity/progressivism?

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  • after 2020

    1 5.88%
  • after 2024

    0 0%
  • after some future election

    1 5.88%
  • never

    5 29.41%
  • only after ecological or economic tragedy

    8 47.06%
  • after ecological or economic tragedy there will be full bore fascism

    2 11.76%
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Thread: Will The Oligarchy that owns the US eeeevvvvveerrrrrr be slightly reined in?

  1. Top | #91
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post

    I didn't say anything about tax rates. I asked about practicality.

    Frankly, I think this:



    is much better than this.:

    At least you're admitting the 90+% rates are fantasy.

    What is also missing in your data is tax loopholes. We don't know what the rates really were.

    That being said, the first thing to do should be to undo His Flatulence's tax cuts.
    And again, doubling down on the rates and ignoring the question of practicality.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

  2. Top | #92
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Given neither people nor businesses can control visibility of income in or out thanks to our digital economy, the guvnamint (sic) should just track these transactions and assign tax proportional to difference in income and outgo. It already has control of at least meta information transactions. Warren has a plan for that.

  3. Top | #93
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post

    I didn't say anything about tax rates. I asked about practicality.

    Frankly, I think this:



    is much better than this.:

    At least you're admitting the 90+% rates are fantasy.

    What is also missing in your data is tax loopholes. We don't know what the rates really were.

    That being said, the first thing to do should be to undo His Flatulence's tax cuts.
    And again, doubling down on the rates and ignoring the question of practicality.
    I think the eye popper for differences between 1950 and now is the 90% rate on top incomes. And, as I wrote elsewhere the government already has access to information tools capable of independently ascertaining income and outgo for most everybody.

    Those who are conducting flea market economies which, thirty years ago, was already estimated to be 15% of GDP. They could effectively be reigned in by eliminating anything but electronic transactions.

  4. Top | #94
    Super Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Given neither people nor businesses can control visibility of income in or out thanks to our digital economy, the guvnamint (sic) should just track these transactions and assign tax proportional to difference in income and outgo. It already has control of at least meta information transactions. Warren has a plan for that.
    In other words, punish thrift, reward squandering your money. No saving for a rainy day.

  5. Top | #95
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Thrift? It's more than just thrift that makes billionaires.

  6. Top | #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Given neither people nor businesses can control visibility of income in or out thanks to our digital economy, the guvnamint (sic) should just track these transactions and assign tax proportional to difference in income and outgo. It already has control of at least meta information transactions. Warren has a plan for that.
    In other words, punish thrift, reward squandering your money. No saving for a rainy day.
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Thrift? It's more than just thrift that makes billionaires.
    He wasn't talking about just billionaires.

  7. Top | #97
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Thrift? It's more than just thrift that makes billionaires.
    Yes. A LOT more. Like building business empires in unoccupied spaces in the economy. That's what happened in the previous Gilded Age, and that's what's been happening in this one.

    Thrift can be overdone, leading to the Paradox of Thrift - If everybody saved instead of spending, the economy would grind to a halt. Though if people are to spend for the good of the economy, then the duty of doing so should not mainly fall on those least able to do so.

  8. Top | #98
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Thrift? It's more than just thrift that makes billionaires.
    He wasn't talking about just billionaires.
    That assumes that low income earners get paid enough to put money aside as savings. Low income and thrift are inseparable. Nor, as pointed out, does this help the economy as a whole.

  9. Top | #99
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Why are we living in an age of anger – is it because of the 50-year rage cycle? | Science | The Guardian - 2018 May 16

    Pointing to US outbursts of social and political violence around 1870, 1920, and 1970, with the prediction of 2020 as the next one.

    Happy Birthday, America: Is It Your Last? | Vanity Fair - 2018 July 1

    "The curious aspect of this divide is that Americans of strongly opposed ideologies but mild partisan sympathies often seem more willing to share a country than do Americans of mildly opposed ideologies but strong partisan sympathies." - mentioning the likes of Tucker Carlson and Glenn Greenwald being friends.
    Most of us have read enough about our divides to be familiar with the studies of partisanship and how our loyalties skew our perceptions. We know, from psychological papers, that as sports fans we’re likely to overlook the faults of our own team and perceive and exaggerate every fault of the other side. And yet few of us seem to make an effort to factor it into our thinking. Back when the rivalry between the Bloods and the Crips of South Los Angeles fascinated the world, journalists would occasionally ask members of each side (which also had countless internal factions) why they hated the other one. No one ever seemed to offer a coherent answer. It wasn’t a battle of ideas, of lifestyle, of resources, or even of blood. Turf wars and drugs entered into it, but the battle was primarily one of arbitrary identity and nothing more. They hated one another because they hated one another.
    Not even "The Crips were nasty to us" or "The Bloods were nasty to us".

    “The American polity today has a lot in common with the Antebellum America of the 1850s; with Ancien Régime France on the eve of the French Revolution; with Stuart England during the 1630s; and innumerable other historical societies that went through integrative/disintegrative cycles,” writes Turchin, who predicts that we’re headed for peak unrest in the 2020s.
    Cliodynamics: can we use history to forecast the future? | The Week UK - 2019 Nov 13
    Turchin says: “It is important to stress the limitations of this approach. The theory does not predict when and how actual violence will break out, only structural conditions that make such an outcome likely.”
    He is now researching the various possible outcomes of a crisis period.

  10. Top | #100
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Peter Turchin The Ginkgo Model of Societal Crisis - Peter Turchin
    Until last year I thought that we collectively have a decent chance of avoiding the crisis, but I now have abandoned this hope. A major reason for my pessimism is the resolute refusal by our ruling class (including its both Liberal and Conservative wings) to see the real causes of the crisis. They are internal, not external. As a result, the mid-term elections will be completely free of (largely mythical) Russian influence, but no attempt is made to address the deep structural-demographic causes. All these pressures continue to increase.
    While going into a crisis is overall very similar, what next isn't. Peter Turchin had assessed crises in several places (Europe, Russia, Middle East, India, China, US), and he finds a variety of outcomes:
    • Population decline, decline > 50%
    • Lethal epidemic
    • Elite: massive downward mobility, dispossession, extermination
    • Ruler: executed or assassinated
    • Transformative revolution
    • Civil war, period of prolonged/repeated ones (>100 years)
    • Territorial fragmentation, external conquest

    More positive total outcomes are not very common; they peak in the moderate-to-severe range.
    What it means for us here in the United States is that the severity of the troubles to come in the next few years to a decade is really impossible to predict. It could be as mild as the late 1960s–early 1970s, with the violent urban riots and a fairly ineffectual terrorist campaign by the Weather Underground. Or it could be as bad as the First American Civil War. Once again, a real catastrophic collapse of our society may not be highly probable, but it is much more probable than we think.

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