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Thread: UBI vs Minimum Wage

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    UBI vs Minimum Wage

    This issue has pushed me on from Bernie sanders' call for minimum wage increases to Andrew Yang and UBI. UBI applies to everyone evenly, including those who truly need it, the unemployed.

    Thoughts?

    ANybody have a good reason why Yang isn't the better choice? I'm swinging heavily towards Yang lately. Talk me out of it.

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    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    I like the idea of UBI but why can't we raise the minimum wage and have UBI?

    And Yang is going nowhere but back to obscurity after the primaries.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

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    There's no reason to have both minimum wage and UBI. The minimum wage supposedly exists in order to ensure workers have enough to live on. (Reality: It was explicitly created to keep the undesirables out of the labor market and still does this to a substantial degree. And it does nothing about the real cause of poverty: too few hours worked.) UBI provides enough to live on, you don't need to harm the labor market by also having a minimum wage.

    That being said, I don't like either one.

    We have a far better approach than minimum wage--the earned income tax credit. It should be considerably expanded. It carries little of the downside of minimum wage--you would end up with a system where there was actually basically full employment.

    I used to support UBI (although I don't think we reached the point where it should be implemented) but I have changed my mind on it because of a serious flaw: UBI is fine if it works, but if problems are found after a long time of doing it it will be basically impossible to fix the situation. Thus, I prefer a system of government jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    I like the idea of UBI but why can't we raise the minimum wage and have UBI?

    And Yang is going nowhere but back to obscurity after the primaries.
    They said the same of Sanders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    I used to support UBI (although I don't think we reached the point where it should be implemented) but I have changed my mind on it because of a serious flaw: UBI is fine if it works, but if problems are found after a long time of doing it it will be basically impossible to fix the situation. Thus, I prefer a system of government jobs.
    Care to explain this further? I don't get what you are saying here.

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    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    I like the idea of UBI but why can't we raise the minimum wage and have UBI?

    And Yang is going nowhere but back to obscurity after the primaries.
    They said the same of Sanders.
    Really? When was this? You do realize he's been a US Senator for a long time, don't you?
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

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    Elder Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    I used to support UBI (although I don't think we reached the point where it should be implemented) but I have changed my mind on it because of a serious flaw: UBI is fine if it works, but if problems are found after a long time of doing it it will be basically impossible to fix the situation. Thus, I prefer a system of government jobs.
    Care to explain this further? I don't get what you are saying here.
    I suspect he means that after a while people will get unrecoverably lazy,stupid,useless. I think we already have that to some degree even without UBI or probably because of lack of it. For all intents and purposes we will have communism in 15-20 years, and Andrew Yang is right, we have to start preparing now. This includes getting rid of bullshit jobs, some forms of UBI, reduced work hours, continuous education, having meaningful hobbies instead of jobs.
    Sanders is becoming broken record player to me.

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    Sanders really is a broken record player. He has a lot of right ideas but he doesn't reason things through like Yang does. I would like to see the two debate. I would like to see Bernie without talking points (even though I agree with most of them).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    I like the idea of UBI but why can't we raise the minimum wage and have UBI?

    And Yang is going nowhere but back to obscurity after the primaries.
    They said the same of Sanders.
    Really? When was this? You do realize he's been a US Senator for a long time, don't you?
    I'd bet that 95% of Bernie supporters did not know who is was prior to the 2016 primaries. Hell, most of them didn't know who the Senators in their own state were. The problem for Yang is that support for Bernie has very little to do with the quality of his ideas, most of which are poorly thought out or based on logically invalid comparisons to Scandinavian countries. It's about the appeal of his colorful folksy charisma. People find him charming and amusing as a person, so they like him as a candidate. Yang lacks such appeal of "style".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    I'd bet that 95% of Bernie supporters did not know who is was prior to the 2016 primaries.
    Yes. He was MAYBE known in his own state. He definitely wasn't known nationally. He's now known globally to some extent. The 2016 election put him on the map for sure. The 2020 election could do that same with Yang.

    Hell, most of them didn't know who the Senators in their own state were. The problem for Yang is that support for Bernie has very little to do with the quality of his ideas, most of which are poorly thought out or based on logically invalid comparisons to Scandinavian countries. It's about the appeal of his colorful folksy charisma. People find him charming and amusing as a person, so they like him as a candidate. Yang lacks such appeal of "style".
    This I disagree with. Bernie does have his quirky old man charm, with the messy hair and crotchety attitude, but it is his message and ideology that has drawn most of his followers. He brought a progressive and "socialist" and outsider message in stark contrast to what came before him in the Democratic Party. Had Warren run instead of Bernie, and had she pushed the same ideas, I think she would now be in his stead. I wonder if she would have had more of a chance against Hillary, had it been woman vs woman and had she been unable to play the woman card. I recall being a big fan of Warren and hoping she would run (there was a "draft Warren" movement that failed in 2015) before I ever heard of Bernie.

    Many of the ideas that Bernie pushed forward have now been adopted by many other Democrats. It's not hard for them to run without at least nodding (even if disingenuously) to universal single payer health care. Yang has another unique message, and though he's very unlikely to win the Presidency (this time around, or ever), he may be bringing UBI from a fringe idea Democracts never talk about to a central idea and maybe even a reality in the future, especially as his predictions about automation become more and more the reality.

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