Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 90

Thread: UBI vs Minimum Wage

  1. Top | #21
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    South Pole
    Posts
    9,139
    Archived
    3,444
    Total Posts
    12,583
    Rep Power
    69
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    As he got more media coverage, including parodies of his "style", his popularity skyrocketed before he ever laid out any real policies, due to his likability.
    At first the media went out of their way not to cover him. I recall the focus being on an empty Trump podium instead of a Sanders rally that was going on at the same time.

    And I don't recall ever hearing Bernie say anything that didn't in some way touch on policy. Hillary was the one full of empty platitudes. Sanders was always on note, and still is always on note, about wanting medicare for all or free college etc. I do agree that he didn't lay things out as clearly or as focused as Yang does though.

  2. Top | #22
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    3,446
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    I used to support UBI (although I don't think we reached the point where it should be implemented) but I have changed my mind on it because of a serious flaw: UBI is fine if it works, but if problems are found after a long time of doing it it will be basically impossible to fix the situation. Thus, I prefer a system of government jobs.
    Care to explain this further? I don't get what you are saying here.
    I suspect he means that after a while people will get unrecoverably lazy,stupid,useless. I think we already have that to some degree even without UBI or probably because of lack of it. For all intents and purposes we will have communism in 15-20 years, and Andrew Yang is right, we have to start preparing now. This includes getting rid of bullshit jobs, some forms of UBI, reduced work hours, continuous education, having meaningful hobbies instead of jobs.
    Sanders is becoming broken record player to me.
    The problem is that who decides what is a "bull shit job"? Did you try to make the case that companies don't need attorney's or marketing (which is ludicrous)? What is a bullshit job to you could be absolutely essential for many companies.

  3. Top | #23
    Contributor barbos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Mlky Way galaxy
    Posts
    9,709
    Archived
    8,047
    Total Posts
    17,756
    Rep Power
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    I suspect he means that after a while people will get unrecoverably lazy,stupid,useless. I think we already have that to some degree even without UBI or probably because of lack of it. For all intents and purposes we will have communism in 15-20 years, and Andrew Yang is right, we have to start preparing now. This includes getting rid of bullshit jobs, some forms of UBI, reduced work hours, continuous education, having meaningful hobbies instead of jobs.
    Sanders is becoming broken record player to me.
    The problem is that who decides what is a "bull shit job"? Did you try to make the case that companies don't need attorney's or marketing (which is ludicrous)? What is a bullshit job to you could be absolutely essential for many companies.
    Of course bullshit jobs are essential to ..... bullshit companies . What they are not essential to is society as a whole.
    I don't advocate direct banning bullshit jobs, I suggest eliminating through change of structure of the economy and UBI is one of such structural changes which eliminates one class of bullshit jobs which people take only out of desperation.

  4. Top | #24
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    3,446
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    I suspect he means that after a while people will get unrecoverably lazy,stupid,useless. I think we already have that to some degree even without UBI or probably because of lack of it. For all intents and purposes we will have communism in 15-20 years, and Andrew Yang is right, we have to start preparing now. This includes getting rid of bullshit jobs, some forms of UBI, reduced work hours, continuous education, having meaningful hobbies instead of jobs.
    Sanders is becoming broken record player to me.
    The problem is that who decides what is a "bull shit job"? Did you try to make the case that companies don't need attorney's or marketing (which is ludicrous)? What is a bullshit job to you could be absolutely essential for many companies.
    Of course bullshit jobs are essential to ..... bullshit companies . What they are not essential to is society as a whole.
    I don't advocate direct banning bullshit jobs, I suggest eliminating through change of structure of the economy and UBI is one of such structural changes which eliminates one class of bullshit jobs which people take only out of desperation.
    You think that people only take attorney and marketing jobs out of desperation? They are some of the most well paid employees in our economy.

  5. Top | #25
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    24,393
    Archived
    96,752
    Total Posts
    121,145
    Rep Power
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    I used to support UBI (although I don't think we reached the point where it should be implemented) but I have changed my mind on it because of a serious flaw: UBI is fine if it works, but if problems are found after a long time of doing it it will be basically impossible to fix the situation. Thus, I prefer a system of government jobs.
    Care to explain this further? I don't get what you are saying here.
    Eventually you'll end up with a bunch of people who have no ability to be employed--what happens if then we find UBI is unsustainable??

  6. Top | #26
    Contributor barbos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Mlky Way galaxy
    Posts
    9,709
    Archived
    8,047
    Total Posts
    17,756
    Rep Power
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post

    You think that people only take attorney and marketing jobs out of desperation?
    No, some are just naturally born assholes.
    They are some of the most well paid employees in our economy.
    I agree, something is wrong with our economy.

  7. Top | #27
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    24,393
    Archived
    96,752
    Total Posts
    121,145
    Rep Power
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleDon View Post
    I dislike the idea of the UBI. Capitalism works best when people have to work to make money. It is empowering for the individual too, to work to support oneself and not to be dependent on the government or a trust fund set up by a parent.

    Instead of the UBI, my choice for a good idea that has little chance of being implemented would be the guaranteed job. A job corp that would hire anyone over 18 who wants a job. It would be a minimum wage job paid for by the federal government but organized by the local government to do those many things like picking up litter and scrubbing off graffiti. Things that don't get done in cities and towns today.
    I think there's a lot more than just the grunt jobs that people could be usefully employed at. I agree with the general idea, although I would like to see a considerably-upgraded EITC instead of a high minimum wage.

  8. Top | #28
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    24,393
    Archived
    96,752
    Total Posts
    121,145
    Rep Power
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleDon View Post
    Instead of the UBI, my choice for a good idea that has little chance of being implemented would be the guaranteed job. A job corp that would hire anyone over 18 who wants a job. It would be a minimum wage job paid for by the federal government but organized by the local government to do those many things like picking up litter and scrubbing off graffiti. Things that don't get done in cities and towns today.
    Or... just build AI machinery to do all that for us. Its coming. When a robot can do your job for pennies and you are being paid $15 per hour for it, and you keep doing it and being paid that, not because you want to, not because it is adding to society, but just so you can feel "empowered" and useful.... I think something has gone wrong. I think you could be doing something both more enjoyable and more constructive to society with your time, even if its something that wouldn't be paid work in current capitalist society.
    Eventually that's what's no doubt going to happen but we are still a long way from that point.

  9. Top | #29
    Contributor barbos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Mlky Way galaxy
    Posts
    9,709
    Archived
    8,047
    Total Posts
    17,756
    Rep Power
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    I used to support UBI (although I don't think we reached the point where it should be implemented) but I have changed my mind on it because of a serious flaw: UBI is fine if it works, but if problems are found after a long time of doing it it will be basically impossible to fix the situation. Thus, I prefer a system of government jobs.
    Care to explain this further? I don't get what you are saying here.
    Eventually you'll end up with a bunch of people who have no ability to be employed--what happens if then we find UBI is unsustainable??
    You don't understand, there is simply not enough meaningful jobs available already, you can't add bullshit jobs forever.

  10. Top | #30
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    4,830
    Rep Power
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    As he got more media coverage, including parodies of his "style", his popularity skyrocketed before he ever laid out any real policies, due to his likability.
    At first the media went out of their way not to cover him. I recall the focus being on an empty Trump podium instead of a Sanders rally that was going on at the same time.

    And I don't recall ever hearing Bernie say anything that didn't in some way touch on policy. Hillary was the one full of empty platitudes. Sanders was always on note, and still is always on note, about wanting medicare for all or free college etc. I do agree that he didn't lay things out as clearly or as focused as Yang does though.
    Sanders' rhetoric was and still is little more than "Let me give you free shit with no realistic way to pay for it." and "Let's implement a gross oversimplification of what Sweden does, like the "free college" the don't really have, completely ignoring the details and massive contextual differences that won't allow those policies to work here."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •