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Thread: How to Read the Bible

  1. Top | #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Just when I thought I could no longer be surprised.

    It is mind boggling that today we are so embroiled in the somewhat ambiguous and disjointed writings of a small ancient group of people.

    How far did Moses' vision go? Modern Israel?
    Just so you know, I am not saying I believe it, I'm saying what the Orthodox say....

  2. Top | #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Just when I thought I could no longer be surprised.

    It is mind boggling that today we are so embroiled in the somewhat ambiguous and disjointed writings of a small ancient group of people.

    How far did Moses' vision go? Modern Israel?
    Just so you know, I am not saying I believe it, I'm saying what the Orthodox say....
    I am speaking generally not to you personally. You gave me a few talking points.

    Personally whether someone believe or not is not an issue for me. It is what someone does with beliefs.

    Is this you? There are many past interesting Jewish philosophers. I read Moses Maimonides Guide For The Perplexed, written centuries ago. When science and scripture conflict, interpretation of scripture must change. He crossed secular philosophy and religious boundaries, something we desperately need today.

    https://www.thelehrhaus.com/jewish-t...m-of-rav-kook/

    Translation of Text of Pinkesei Ha-Ra’ayah[16]
    Kabbalah must bond with all the sciences; to live with them and through them. So did the great [sages] throughout the ages; and more than they achieved—it is obligatory upon us to achieve. The spiritual world that bestows its spirit upon the thinking man, was enhanced by constant appearances of the light of intellect. This enhancement dulls the oppositions between one science and another, and once the barriers have come down—the different sciences actually come to one another’s aid.

    Science in all of its breadth, in all of its various aspects—spiritual and practical, societal and global—must find its place alongside the supernal wisdom [i.e. Kabbalah].

    A shining example of this would be the book Sha‘ar ha-Shamayim by Rabbi Abraham Cohen Herrera, who was the second in a line extending from Rabbi Isaac Luria through Rabbi Israel Sarug, disciple of Rabbi Isaac Luria. Herrera was inspired to write his book in Spanish, in full view of the cultured world of the day. With a breadth of intellect and feelings of respect and affection, the author toured all the philosophical studies that represented the finest literature of his time. Rabbi Isaac Aboab [da Fonseca] who admired Herrera—translating the work into Hebrew for the benefit of Hebrews—followed in his spirit, which is the spirit of true culture worthy of Torah scholars who are truly “men of holiness.”

    It is understood that according to the changes of the Zeitgeist, so must the synthesis (between the supernal, divine wisdom and all the human thoughts that proceed from the sciences) shift, but the principle remains the same. The preparedness of the thinker—pure of knowledge and holy of thought—to absorb into his midst the best thoughts of the finest writers, the thinkers, the sages of every people and language, of every subject of science; and to shine upon them, from them and through them, the divine light—this is the unchanging way of the world, upon which we are obligated to travel.

    Only “if you have heard the old, will you hear the new” (b. Berakhot 40a) The old must be studied and researched, and it will bring the new, good, and fundamental.

  3. Top | #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    I am speaking generally not to you personally. You gave me a few talking points.

    Personally whether someone believe or not is not an issue for me. It is what someone does with beliefs..
    Just making sure. While I can articulate the Orthodox view, I don't always concur with it's teachings. And I heartily agree. I really don't care what you believe I care about the way you behave.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Is this you? There are many past interesting Jewish philosophers. I read Moses Maimonides Guide For The Perplexed, written centuries ago. When science and scripture conflict, interpretation of scripture must change. He crossed secular philosophy and religious boundaries, something we desperately need today.

    https://www.thelehrhaus.com/jewish-t...m-of-rav-kook/

    Translation of Text of Pinkesei Ha-Ra’ayah[16]
    Kabbalah must bond with all the sciences; to live with them and through them. So did the great [sages] throughout the ages; and more than they achieved—it is obligatory upon us to achieve. The spiritual world that bestows its spirit upon the thinking man, was enhanced by constant appearances of the light of intellect. This enhancement dulls the oppositions between one science and another, and once the barriers have come down—the different sciences actually come to one another’s aid.

    Science in all of its breadth, in all of its various aspects—spiritual and practical, societal and global—must find its place alongside the supernal wisdom [i.e. Kabbalah].

    A shining example of this would be the book Sha‘ar ha-Shamayim by Rabbi Abraham Cohen Herrera, who was the second in a line extending from Rabbi Isaac Luria through Rabbi Israel Sarug, disciple of Rabbi Isaac Luria. Herrera was inspired to write his book in Spanish, in full view of the cultured world of the day. With a breadth of intellect and feelings of respect and affection, the author toured all the philosophical studies that represented the finest literature of his time. Rabbi Isaac Aboab [da Fonseca] who admired Herrera—translating the work into Hebrew for the benefit of Hebrews—followed in his spirit, which is the spirit of true culture worthy of Torah scholars who are truly “men of holiness.”

    It is understood that according to the changes of the Zeitgeist, so must the synthesis (between the supernal, divine wisdom and all the human thoughts that proceed from the sciences) shift, but the principle remains the same. The preparedness of the thinker—pure of knowledge and holy of thought—to absorb into his midst the best thoughts of the finest writers, the thinkers, the sages of every people and language, of every subject of science; and to shine upon them, from them and through them, the divine light—this is the unchanging way of the world, upon which we are obligated to travel.

    Only “if you have heard the old, will you hear the new” (b. Berakhot 40a) The old must be studied and researched, and it will bring the new, good, and fundamental.
    Yes, you have uncovered my acronym, I love Kook and I have devoured just about every book about his writings. He was a giant in the 20th Century Jewish World. While I love is exalted view of life and humanity

    Writings like this:
    We are brought to recognition of the naturalness of education on the basis of the aspiration toward divine intimacy, since education is the sole legacy promised to humanity... for we do not hold education as the creator of new things in the soul of the pupil, but rather as a supervisor, drawing from obscurity to openness, from potentiality to actuality, what is hidden within the student, revealed as the universal and central character of humanity and its groups, both historical and national. And the correspondence between the individual and general culture at its most profound-this is the natural progression and the success of education.
    All of Existence whispers to me a secret;
    I have life to offer, take please, take,
    If you have a heart and in your heart red blood courses,
    not numbed by the poison of despair.

    And if your heart is dulled
    And beauty holds no spell to you-
    Existence whispers-
    Turn away from me, turn away,
    I am forbidden to you.

    If every gentle sound ,
    every living beauty does not arouse within you
    the splendor of a song of holiness,
    but instead an alien fire,
    Then turn away from me, turn away,
    I am forbidden to you.

    And a people returned to life shall hear
    the wealth of life’s secrets,
    And from the pleasure of song and beauty,
    A holy light will abound.
    And the whole of existence will whisper:
    My beloved, I am permitted to you.
    Mysticism says to us, you dwell in a world filled with life and light. Know the magnificence of being, the wealth of existence that you encounter. Contemplate its greatness, its splendor, its exactitude and its ramifications.
    Associate yourself with the loving legions that constantly produce beauty and majesty. Wherever you may turn, you deal with things that live and endure; you are always acting decisively, in every utterance and gesture that reflects the aspiration of your soul and the dynamic focus of your life. In all your actions you encounter sparks of life and light that yearn and aspire to ascend to the loftiest heights. You help them and they help you.
    The radiance of wisdom that you conceive is not the pale shadowy reflection of a kind of spiritual phosphorescence that does not really exist apart from human research and understanding. The objects of wisdom are denizens of a permanent world who are eager to make your acquaintance and send you good tidings from the distance, assurances of their peace and solidity. And in their peace, you too will find peace.
    But, I am equally under the influence of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, who was one of the most influential religious philosophers of the 20th century. I linked to his last interview before his death above.
    Wonder rather than doubt is the root of all knowledge
    In a free society, some are guilty, but all are responsible.

    (View video on YouTube)

    And Finally, though these are not his words they care based on his philosophy:

    Prayer cannot bring water to parched fields, or mend a broken bridge, or rebuild a ruined city; but prayer can water an arid soul, mend a broken heart, and rebuild a weakened will

  4. Top | #54
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    A Jew told me two Jews within the same issue can have e different interpretations, yet each is bound by the interoperations. There is no formal orthodoxy as in Catholicism.

    Which makes Judaism seem like anarchy. A rabbi can publish a position paper but it is not binding. Similar to Islam.

  5. Top | #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    A Jew told me two Jews within the same issue can have e different interpretations, yet each is bound by the interoperations. There is no formal orthodoxy as in Catholicism.

    Which makes Judaism seem like anarchy. A rabbi can publish a position paper but it is not binding. Similar to Islam.
    So, your source is not accurate. It's really complicated. So for American purposes there are three denominations

    Orthodox: The most observant. Based entirely on Halacha (Jewish Law). Jewish Law has been decided and written down in the Shulchan Aruch. You can't decide a case based on the Talmud. You have to base it on the Schulcan Aruch. So let's take driving on Shabbat. Absolutely forbidden. No women Rabbis

    Conservative:
    Claims to be based on Jewish Law as long as it has the assent of the community. So driving on Shabbat, ok only if you are driving to synagogue. Women Rabbis ok

    Reform: This is the largest denomination. Does not necessarily believe in divine revelation. You are supposed to exam Jewish Law and do what is meaningful to you. The members had individual autonomy. Drive where you want on Shabbat. even if it;s past the Synagogue to restaurant

    Even that little blurb above is not totally accurate. It's really complicated. Since the Sanhedrin is no longer in existence, Jewish Law is frozen. There is no court to make new rulings.

    The Orthodox can break down to the Hasidim (Think Black hats and coats) and Modern Orthodox (see Joe Lieberman). In the Hasidic sects there are Rebbes.. You don't do anything without talking to the Rebbe Someone once asked the Satmar Rebbe if her could come back to life as Gentile, who would he choose, The answer is the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

    Jews spend a great deal of time trying to prove they are more religious or better Jews than other Jews.

  6. Top | #56
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    I understand denominations. I see Judaism as similar to American Christianity. Ranges from ultra orthodox and conservative to liberal.

    I am a Jew in NYC a diverse Jewish community. I have a moral issue related to scripture. If I were a Catholic I'd go to a priest who is given authority in the church to decide moral issues. Where and who in NYC do I turn to? As I understand it a rabbi does not have authority to impose moral interpretation's.

    I know that in NYC in non criminal cases Jews can accept binding arbitration from a religious court on civil matters.

  7. Top | #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    I understand denominations. I see Judaism as similar to American Christianity. Ranges from ultra orthodox and conservative to liberal.

    I am a Jew in NYC a diverse Jewish community. I have a moral issue related to scripture. If I were a Catholic I'd go to a priest who is given authority in the church to decide moral issues. Where and who in NYC do I turn to? As I understand it a rabbi does not have authority to impose moral interpretation's.

    I know that in NYC in non criminal cases Jews can accept binding arbitration from a religious court on civil matters.
    I don't understand the authority thing. Authority over who? In relation to what? If you want to PM me I might be able to offer some guidance. Going off line for the Holiday. Won't be back on line until late tomorrow night.
    If you have a moral issue any Rabbi can gibe you guidance. The Torah is not the last word. It's what the Rabbi's say the Torah means. Just like the US Constitution. It's not the text it's what the Supreme Court says.....

  8. Top | #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    I understand denominations. I see Judaism as similar to American Christianity. Ranges from ultra orthodox and conservative to liberal.

    I am a Jew in NYC a diverse Jewish community. I have a moral issue related to scripture. If I were a Catholic I'd go to a priest who is given authority in the church to decide moral issues. Where and who in NYC do I turn to? As I understand it a rabbi does not have authority to impose moral interpretation's.

    I know that in NYC in non criminal cases Jews can accept binding arbitration from a religious court on civil matters.
    Quite a conundrum. Who does one turn to if there are no authoritarian pedophiles to deal with such deep questions?

  9. Top | #59
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    Who says pedophilia is exclusive to religion?

    Statistically the RCC is below the national average for sexual abuse. With the RCC the issue was the cover up more than anything else.

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