Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 59

Thread: How to Read the Bible

  1. Top | #21
    Veteran Member Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    4,767
    Archived
    3,884
    Total Posts
    8,651
    Rep Power
    56
    My problem with the Pentateuch. Modern Near Eastern Archaeology since the end of WW2 has extensively investigated the archaeology of the Near East. And has demonstrated that the Pentateuch is not history. It is now the consensus of expert Near East archaeologists that there was no Egyptian captivity. No Exodus. No Moses and Joshua fighting their way to and across Canaan. The cities supposedly destroyed by Joshua were not in fact destroyed by Joshua and his Israelites. All of this is faux history written centuries after the supposed events related by the Pentateuch.

    And thus no stop of Moses on the mount communing with God. The "hammer verses' of Leviticus 18 and 20 condemning homosexuality for example, were not from God. But still some 2700 later these lies of some bigoted priest still make lives of some miserable.

    This also means that if there is in fact a God, that God did not command the murders, massacres and genocide we find in the Pentateuch.

    This Pentateuch, which supposedly tells us a lot about God and God's nature does no mention hell or heaven. Does not mention life after death. Does not mention heavan or hell, Satan and devils.

    It is a primitive pack of lies, and I am offended at being lead around by the snout by some ancient lying priests. I do not find it admirable for the most part, not true, not literally or allegorically. My stance on this offends a lot of people, but so be it.
    Cheerful Charlie

  2. Top | #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    222
    Archived
    1,524
    Total Posts
    1,746
    Rep Power
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    My problem with the Pentateuch. Modern Near Eastern Archaeology since the end of WW2 has extensively investigated the archaeology of the Near East. And has demonstrated that the Pentateuch is not history. It is now the consensus of expert Near East archaeologists that there was no Egyptian captivity. No Exodus. No Moses and Joshua fighting their way to and across Canaan. The cities supposedly destroyed by Joshua were not in fact destroyed by Joshua and his Israelites. All of this is faux history written centuries after the supposed events related by the Pentateuch.

    And thus no stop of Moses on the mount communing with God. The "hammer verses' of Leviticus 18 and 20 condemning homosexuality for example, were not from God. But still some 2700 later these lies of some bigoted priest still make lives of some miserable.

    This also means that if there is in fact a God, that God did not command the murders, massacres and genocide we find in the Pentateuch.

    This Pentateuch, which supposedly tells us a lot about God and God's nature does no mention hell or heaven. Does not mention life after death. Does not mention heavan or hell, Satan and devils.

    It is a primitive pack of lies, and I am offended at being lead around by the snout by some ancient lying priests. I do not find it admirable for the most part, not true, not literally or allegorically. My stance on this offends a lot of people, but so be it.
    No it is not history. But this thread is not about the historicity of the text. It is about how to approach the text and understand what it is trying to say. Just because some modern morons wave the book as a excuse to discriminate against homosexuals says more about the morons than the book.

  3. Top | #23
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Posts
    1,757
    Archived
    4,109
    Total Posts
    5,866
    Rep Power
    71
    Quote Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    My problem with the Pentateuch. Modern Near Eastern Archaeology since the end of WW2 has extensively investigated the archaeology of the Near East. And has demonstrated that the Pentateuch is not history. It is now the consensus of expert Near East archaeologists that there was no Egyptian captivity. No Exodus. No Moses and Joshua fighting their way to and across Canaan. The cities supposedly destroyed by Joshua were not in fact destroyed by Joshua and his Israelites. All of this is faux history written centuries after the supposed events related by the Pentateuch.

    And thus no stop of Moses on the mount communing with God. The "hammer verses' of Leviticus 18 and 20 condemning homosexuality for example, were not from God. But still some 2700 later these lies of some bigoted priest still make lives of some miserable.

    This also means that if there is in fact a God, that God did not command the murders, massacres and genocide we find in the Pentateuch.

    This Pentateuch, which supposedly tells us a lot about God and God's nature does no mention hell or heaven. Does not mention life after death. Does not mention heavan or hell, Satan and devils.

    It is a primitive pack of lies, and I am offended at being lead around by the snout by some ancient lying priests. I do not find it admirable for the most part, not true, not literally or allegorically. My stance on this offends a lot of people, but so be it.
    No it is not history. But this thread is not about the historicity of the text. It is about how to approach the text and understand what it is trying to say. Just because some modern morons wave the book as a excuse to discriminate against homosexuals says more about the morons than the book.
    Sorry, but every age interprets the Bible the way they want to so that they can fit it for their times. I’m with cheerful Charlie here. It’s morality is extremely outdated. At no point does it say it’s ok to be gay. It calls for bizarre things like rapists to marry their victim, and children to suffer beatings. It’s used today to justify everything from genocide to bigotry. The sooner we chuck it out, the better we will be. It should be viewed as a historical anachronism and nothing more.

    SLD

  4. Top | #24
    Veteran Member Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    4,767
    Archived
    3,884
    Total Posts
    8,651
    Rep Power
    56
    It says what it all says. God commanded murders, massacres and genocides. No, that is not true. God commanded death to homosexuals. No that is not true. And that matters. And lots more that is utterly and totally false. The only reasonable way to approach these texts is to admit that they are based on lies and faux, made up "histories" that never happened. And to be done with them for once and for all.

    The problem is the large numbers of people who still believe the Bible is literally written by God or was inspired by God. And want to force their bad religion down our throats.

    See for example, "Project Blitz".

    https://www.salon.com/2019/04/13/the...el-the-nation/
    Cheerful Charlie

  5. Top | #25
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Port Clinton, Ohio
    Posts
    2,164
    Archived
    591
    Total Posts
    2,755
    Rep Power
    61
    Though Twain has been quoted often, here again is his teaspoon definition of the Bible:

    It is full of interest. It has some noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
    (from Letters from the Earth)

  6. Top | #26
    Cyborg with a Tiara
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Recluse
    Posts
    7,672
    Archived
    9,040
    Total Posts
    16,712
    Rep Power
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Hi HaRaAYaH, I can’t download video. Rural bandwidth too slow.



    But are you saying that the bible doesn’t make sense if you’re not a bronze-age human?
    Why does the god need to be in partnership with humans in order to communicate? It communicated directly back then, but lost its powers, maybe?
    I don’t get why it was not powerful enough to write a bible that makes sense in any age. Puzzling, isn’t it.
    So the Bible was an oral tradition. It was passed down orally. That means the language was clipped. Things were left out that were understood by people of that era. Think of someone looking at a string of text messages today. Without a commentary explaining the vernacular of the time what dp you think the future will think of our messages.

    Also, any translation is itself a commentary. You need a commentary to understand the language and the vernacular of the time. A modern parallel is the US constitution. They are just words and yet we need the Supreme Court to explain what it means. Can't you just read the words and understand it?

    I get that, and it all makes perfect sense if there is no God.

    Am I correct in understanding you that the very best that an all powerful god could possibly accomplish is equal to the level of bronze age humans?

  7. Top | #27
    Cyborg with a Tiara
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Recluse
    Posts
    7,672
    Archived
    9,040
    Total Posts
    16,712
    Rep Power
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH View Post

    No it is not history. But this thread is not about the historicity of the text. It is about how to approach the text and understand what it is trying to say. Just because some modern morons wave the book as a excuse to discriminate against homosexuals says more about the morons than the book.
    How should we approach it, then? It sounds like you are suggesting that the only honest way to approach it is like the National Enquirer? I ask that question seriously.

  8. Top | #28
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    222
    Archived
    1,524
    Total Posts
    1,746
    Rep Power
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH View Post

    No it is not history. But this thread is not about the historicity of the text. It is about how to approach the text and understand what it is trying to say. Just because some modern morons wave the book as a excuse to discriminate against homosexuals says more about the morons than the book.
    How should we approach it, then? It sounds like you are suggesting that the only honest way to approach it is like the National Enquirer? I ask that question seriously.
    Not at all. In order to understand an ancient text, you must understand the language and culture in which it was produced. Especially in an oral tradition when details of a story were left out as they were understood by the community at the time. The words are words and mean what they mean is not accurate and never was. Words and phrases mean different things to different people. That is why you need to approach the text with a guide. A person who does not believe the text to be historical will appreciate the Plaut commentary i linked to above as it has fair amount of modern Biblical criticism. The layman who has no exposure to Jewish tradition would be totally lost in Heschel's Heavenly Torah.

    I'll give you the same examples

    1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution is interpreted now to mean anyone can own anything. A clear reading of the text me is you need to be part of a well regulated Militia. But that is not what the US constitution says.

    2) If you go forward in time 4000 years and find a cell phone and power it up and you look through some text messages you would have hard time understanding the communication without some guide to what the acronyms mean.

    I'm not trying to convince you there is a God, if there is a God, the God of the Bible is good or bad. I'm just trying to show you that picking up a text written thousands of years ago in a different language and expecting any understanding of the text without understanding the language and the culture in which it was written will prove fruitless. That is why you need a guide, a commentary.

    The other thing I want to stress to people is the text is meaningless in comparison to what man does with the text. Judaism is an interpretation of the Torah. The death penalty is one example, the eye for an eye is another. The law of the Sotah was abolished. If I had time I could go through the text and find more. The point is, explore the text and take it for what it says to you, which may be nothing.

    If you have no interest in exploring the text, don't. If you have an understanding of the text by reading it on your own, live and he happy. If however, you want to read the text as the OP asked, I gave you a way to approach it and understand it from a religious and historic POV.

    Also, I never debate theology with anyone. I don't care what you believe, I only care how you act. If you are a good person and you don't believe in God, I'd rather hang with you than be with a believer who was not a good person....

  9. Top | #29
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Searching for reality along the long and winding road
    Posts
    4,956
    Archived
    12,976
    Total Posts
    17,932
    Rep Power
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH View Post

    No it is not history. But this thread is not about the historicity of the text. It is about how to approach the text and understand what it is trying to say. Just because some modern morons wave the book as a excuse to discriminate against homosexuals says more about the morons than the book.
    How should we approach it, then? It sounds like you are suggesting that the only honest way to approach it is like the National Enquirer? I ask that question seriously.
    Not at all. In order to understand an ancient text, you must understand the language and culture in which it was produced. Especially in an oral tradition when details of a story were left out as they were understood by the community at the time. The words are words and mean what they mean is not accurate and never was. Words and phrases mean different things to different people. That is why you need to approach the text with a guide. A person who does not believe the text to be historical will appreciate the Plaut commentary i linked to above as it has fair amount of modern Biblical criticism. The layman who has no exposure to Jewish tradition would be totally lost in Heschel's Heavenly Torah.
    .... snip ....
    It isn't just a problem with ancient text. A transliteration of modern Spanish, German, Swedish, etc. into English will produce a jumble of nonsense. It is meaning that must be translated not words. This is why the very early computer translation programs were almost worthless - they transliterated.

    An ad campaign back when the American Dairy Association was pushing for people to drink more milk used the catch phrase "Got Milk?". The meaning was clear to U.S. citizens who spoke English. The ad agency decided to appeal to the Hispanic communities along the southern border so transliterated the catch phrase as, "Tienes Leche?" which in Mexican Spanish means, "Are you lactating?". This message was prominently displayed on billboards along the highways of southern Texas.

  10. Top | #30
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    seattle
    Posts
    4,857
    Rep Power
    12
    The bible is not a history? It certainly is the history of a small ethnic group and it refelcts that culture. Myths, lasws, traditions.

    it is

    1. A creation myth common feature in all cultures.
    2. A set of myths that reinforce the group. Power and justification. Another common human theme.
    3. A set of rules and dicates. There are 613 specific rules or guidelines that can be pulled out. I had a thread on the list.
    4. A genealogy, who begat who.
    5. Not a complete history but a set of period histories.
    6. Moral tales and wisdom literature. Proverbs and Job as a moral tale.
    7 A cultural narrative of always being a victim.
    8 The idea of being the special minions of a god, that too is not unique. Noses parting the waters defeating Egypt.

    The bible is crude in comparison but it is just another cultural narrative. Greeks, Persians, Babylonians, Egyptians, and the rest. American Native Americans, Incas, Mayans, Aztecs. All gave cultural narratives, histories, mythologies, and gods of sorts.

    The bible is not unique. It is the epitome of arrogance for Jews to say they are the one and only based on the bible.

    The idea that it is more than that being the inspired interaction between god and Jews is part and parcel of the Jewish narrative.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •