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Thread: Exposing Atheistic Myths

  1. Top | #41
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    And fifty quatloos, Half's response would boil down to Nuh uh...
    There may be no meaning to this world, but that does not mean that what I do is meaningless.
    -Mark Lawrence

  2. Top | #42
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Life View Post
    In this thread, I will be exposing common atheistic myths. Anyone want to try to stump me?
    Hey, why pussyfoot around, anyway?

    Clearly, your point in this is 'atheism is stupid, there is a god,' right?
    Plenty of believers, of various religious traditions, accept any science you can come up with as an 'atheist belief.' So attacking, say, evolution, the Big Bang, 4-color map theory, relativity, or Murphy's Law isn't really attacking atheism, just modern science.

    Go forbthe gold ring. The ONLY thing common to all atheists is a disbelief in gods.
    Various reasons, to varying degrees, but that's what we all share. So prove a god exists, or gods exist, and be done with this.

    Because illustrating your shallow, shallow, shallow, shallow grasp on science AND atheists is not making anyone question the state of their conscience or soul.

  3. Top | #43
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Halfie appears stumped.

  4. Top | #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post

    Wrong again. While science can say nothing about the supernatural, it can be used to test for the effects of the supernatural on our everyday lives. To date, pertaining to any area that has been the subject of scientific inquiry, science has never concluded that a phenomenon has to have a supernatural origin. Never! Not in a single instance! In other words, if your god exists, it is powerless to have any perceptible effect on our lives. Which would be exactly like a god that doesn't exist.

    Ignorance can be cured. But you have to be willing to work at it.
    It's worse than that for fans of the supernatural.

    One of the interesting things that has fallen out of the Standard Model is that we have determined every possible interaction with matter, between a very broad range of energies. There are no unknown forces - if there were, they would have a corresponding particle, and it would have been detected by the LHC and other particle accelerators.

    The ONLY unknown forces that might exist would either need to be very long-range (the graviton, for example, might exist; But it's influence is irrelevant on human scales - that is, you cannot use gravity to have an influence on a specific person in a crowd, much less to influence a specific neuron or group of neurons. So gravity isn't a possible way for a hypothetical god to place visions in the mind of a prophet, or for a hypothetical soul to be transmitted to the supernatural realm on a person's death); Or very short range - perhaps there's a force that can subtly influence quarks, that we haven't yet detected, but if so, it would have no discernible influence on an object as large as a molecule, unless so much energy was used that the resulting explosion could level a city. Humans probably can't survive a divine intervention that is that energetic.

    Science hasn't disproven gods in general. But it has disproven gods that interact on scales bigger than atomic nuclei, but smaller than solar systems. And as almost all of religion is interested in the influence of god(s) on Earth and its inhabitants, science has disproven all of those parts of every god hypothesis.

    There's no way to eliminate the "god of the gaps"; But the remaing gaps mean that we can eliminate, and have eliminated, gods that have any direct influence on humanity.

    A deist god, that crafted a universe in extreme conditions, and has had no influence on that universe since, could still be posited without absolute certainty that it is false. But any god that hears (much less answers) prayers; any soul, or supernatural influence on our physical bodies or brains; any afterlife (or pre-birth existence of personality or "self"); all these things have been ruled out by physics.

    It's over. Fortunately for the theists, the vast majority of humans don't know or understand Quantum Field Theory. But ignorance doesn't make things untrue; and it is undeniably true that QFT rules out the vast majority of the gods that humans have ever developed.

    And QFT could be wrong; But only in the same sense that the Moon could be made of green cheese. It's possible that there's a massive error in QFT, and it's possible that the Apollo missions just happened to miss the outcrops of Stilton at the edge of the Sea of Tranquility.

    Actually, given the relative stringency of the tests done, and the accuracy of the results, it's considerably more plausible that the Moon is made from dairy products than it is that QFT is sufficiently wrong to permit the existence of an unknown force at human scales.

    There are only four forces at our scale. All four are easy to detect. If a soul or god were using any of these to affect humans, we would have detected it long ago. And as humans are made of matter, any influence that doesn't affect matter isn't relevant. So 'Dark energy' or 'Dark matter' don't help the theistic case - unless their god is only interested in objects the size of galaxies.

    So not only have we never detected any supernatural influences on reality; We have positively ruled out any possibility that such influences could exist.
    While this is all true, Half-Life likely doesn't even understand Newtonian mechanics. A discussion on QFT and the Standard Model, and how our findings rule out any possible godly interventions in our everyday lives, would be way over his head. Have you seen him post an intelligent response to anything that has been posted to counter his claims in this thread?

  5. Top | #45
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Life View Post
    ...
    God is pure immaterial spirit outside of the universe. This is what makes Him the True God. Other gods were finite such as the greek gods. God Himself came along and said "I am" which implies no beginning and no end.

    There is no energy that sustains God. It is just God.

    Might take a while to wrap your head around it.
    What I get is that mankind has an insatiable need to know things like ... oh, where the universe came from along with all this stuff. But instead of simply saying we don't know yet, or perhaps even that it's something we'll never be able to know, we've invented a God thing that, by definition, needs no explanation for how it came to be or exactly where it is.

  6. Top | #46
    Veteran Member skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Life View Post
    ...
    God is pure immaterial spirit outside of the universe. This is what makes Him the True God. Other gods were finite such as the greek gods. God Himself came along and said "I am" which implies no beginning and no end.

    There is no energy that sustains God. It is just God.

    Might take a while to wrap your head around it.
    What I get is that mankind has an insatiable need to know things like ... oh, where the universe came from along with all this stuff. But instead of simply saying we don't know yet, or perhaps even that it's something we'll never be able to know, we've invented a God thing that, by definition, needs no explanation for how it came to be or exactly where it is.
    Explaining how something happened to a four year old brings a string of "Whys" until they are told it was magic. This seems to satisfy them since there was a 'cause' that was named. As people get older, most are not satisfied with 'magic' as an explanation - some become skeptical and continue to seek understandings. Some become religious and accept as an explanation a more descriptive sounding cause than the old magic explanation they accepted as a child. That more descriptive sounding cause is 'god'. It's the same answer as 'magic' but with 'punishment' for not accepting it.

  7. Top | #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Life View Post
    ...
    God is pure immaterial spirit outside of the universe. This is what makes Him the True God. Other gods were finite such as the greek gods. God Himself came along and said "I am" which implies no beginning and no end.

    There is no energy that sustains God. It is just God.

    Might take a while to wrap your head around it.
    What I get is that mankind has an insatiable need to know things like ... oh, where the universe came from along with all this stuff. But instead of simply saying we don't know yet, or perhaps even that it's something we'll never be able to know, we've invented a God thing that, by definition, needs no explanation for how it came to be or exactly where it is.
    Halfie is telling us why reindeer can fly. They just can. So convincing. Cool.
    Last edited by T.G.G. Moogly; 09-16-2019 at 02:07 AM.

  8. Top | #48
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post

    Wrong again. While science can say nothing about the supernatural, it can be used to test for the effects of the supernatural on our everyday lives. To date, pertaining to any area that has been the subject of scientific inquiry, science has never concluded that a phenomenon has to have a supernatural origin. Never! Not in a single instance! In other words, if your god exists, it is powerless to have any perceptible effect on our lives. Which would be exactly like a god that doesn't exist.

    Ignorance can be cured. But you have to be willing to work at it.
    It's worse than that for fans of the supernatural.

    One of the interesting things that has fallen out of the Standard Model is that we have determined every possible interaction with matter, between a very broad range of energies. There are no unknown forces - if there were, they would have a corresponding particle, and it would have been detected by the LHC and other particle accelerators.

    The ONLY unknown forces that might exist would either need to be very long-range (the graviton, for example, might exist; But it's influence is irrelevant on human scales - that is, you cannot use gravity to have an influence on a specific person in a crowd, much less to influence a specific neuron or group of neurons. So gravity isn't a possible way for a hypothetical god to place visions in the mind of a prophet, or for a hypothetical soul to be transmitted to the supernatural realm on a person's death); Or very short range - perhaps there's a force that can subtly influence quarks, that we haven't yet detected, but if so, it would have no discernible influence on an object as large as a molecule, unless so much energy was used that the resulting explosion could level a city. Humans probably can't survive a divine intervention that is that energetic.

    Science hasn't disproven gods in general. But it has disproven gods that interact on scales bigger than atomic nuclei, but smaller than solar systems. And as almost all of religion is interested in the influence of god(s) on Earth and its inhabitants, science has disproven all of those parts of every god hypothesis.

    There's no way to eliminate the "god of the gaps"; But the remaing gaps mean that we can eliminate, and have eliminated, gods that have any direct influence on humanity.

    A deist god, that crafted a universe in extreme conditions, and has had no influence on that universe since, could still be posited without absolute certainty that it is false. But any god that hears (much less answers) prayers; any soul, or supernatural influence on our physical bodies or brains; any afterlife (or pre-birth existence of personality or "self"); all these things have been ruled out by physics.

    It's over. Fortunately for the theists, the vast majority of humans don't know or understand Quantum Field Theory. But ignorance doesn't make things untrue; and it is undeniably true that QFT rules out the vast majority of the gods that humans have ever developed.

    And QFT could be wrong; But only in the same sense that the Moon could be made of green cheese. It's possible that there's a massive error in QFT, and it's possible that the Apollo missions just happened to miss the outcrops of Stilton at the edge of the Sea of Tranquility.

    Actually, given the relative stringency of the tests done, and the accuracy of the results, it's considerably more plausible that the Moon is made from dairy products than it is that QFT is sufficiently wrong to permit the existence of an unknown force at human scales.

    There are only four forces at our scale. All four are easy to detect. If a soul or god were using any of these to affect humans, we would have detected it long ago. And as humans are made of matter, any influence that doesn't affect matter isn't relevant. So 'Dark energy' or 'Dark matter' don't help the theistic case - unless their god is only interested in objects the size of galaxies.

    So not only have we never detected any supernatural influences on reality; We have positively ruled out any possibility that such influences could exist.
    While this is all true, Half-Life likely doesn't even understand Newtonian mechanics.
    Probably. But his ignorance shouldn't be assumed to preclude learning. And it doesn't make the things he doesn't understand false.
    A discussion on QFT and the Standard Model, and how our findings rule out any possible godly interventions in our everyday lives, would be way over his head.
    But might inspire him to go out and learn these things.
    Have you seen him post an intelligent response to anything that has been posted to counter his claims in this thread?
    No, but anyone can learn, if they choose to do so.

  9. Top | #49
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Life View Post
    ...
    God is pure immaterial spirit outside of the universe. This is what makes Him the True God. Other gods were finite such as the greek gods. God Himself came along and said "I am" which implies no beginning and no end.

    There is no energy that sustains God. It is just God.

    Might take a while to wrap your head around it.
    What I get is that mankind has an insatiable need to know things like ... oh, where the universe came from along with all this stuff. But instead of simply saying we don't know yet, or perhaps even that it's something we'll never be able to know, we've invented a God thing that, by definition, needs no explanation for how it came to be or exactly where it is.
    Explaining how something happened to a four year old brings a string of "Whys" until they are told it was magic. This seems to satisfy them since there was a 'cause' that was named. As people get older, most are not satisfied with 'magic' as an explanation - some become skeptical and continue to seek understandings. Some become religious and accept as an explanation a more descriptive sounding cause than the old magic explanation they accepted as a child. That more descriptive sounding cause is 'god'. It's the same answer as 'magic' but with 'punishment' for not accepting it.
    As a person matures that whole search for meaning and purpose thing develops. Belief in religion with or without a God provides those answers, especially insofar as living within a community goes. So it's often just an off the shelf remedy rather than seriously introspective. But when doubts arise the faithful look to their religious authorities who have reasoned out the basic questions of existence, and in western religions have decreed that a creator God is necessary. But the logic is invariably anthropic and teleological, not to say down right arrogant.

  10. Top | #50
    Member aupmanyav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Belief in religion with or without a God provides those answers, especially insofar as living within a community goes. So it's often just an off the shelf remedy rather than seriously introspective. But when doubts arise the faithful look to their religious authorities who have reasoned out the basic questions of existence, and in western religions have decreed that a creator God is necessary.
    Yeah, but Indian religions (Hinduism, Buddhism,Jainism and Sikhism) found that they could do without God/Gods/Goddesses.

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