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Thread: Scientists Are Starting to Take Warp Drives Seriously, Especially One Specific Concept

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    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Scientists Are Starting to Take Warp Drives Seriously, Especially One Specific Concept

    https://www.sciencealert.com/how-fea...-s-the-science

    However, in recent years, the scientific community has become understandably excited and skeptical about claims that a particular concept – the Alcubierre Warp Drive – might actually be feasible.

    This was the subject of a presentation made at this year's American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Propulsion and Energy Forum, which took place from August 19th to 22nd in Indianapolis.

    This presentation was conducted by Joseph Agnew – an undergraduate engineer and research assistant from the University of Alabama in Huntsville's Propulsion Research Center (PRC).

    As part of a session titled "The Future of Nuclear and Breakthrough Propulsion", Agnew shared the results of a study he conducted titled "An Examination of Warp Theory and Technology to Determine the State of the Art and Feasibility".
    Make it so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    https://www.sciencealert.com/how-fea...-s-the-science

    However, in recent years, the scientific community has become understandably excited and skeptical about claims that a particular concept – the Alcubierre Warp Drive – might actually be feasible.

    This was the subject of a presentation made at this year's American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Propulsion and Energy Forum, which took place from August 19th to 22nd in Indianapolis.

    This presentation was conducted by Joseph Agnew – an undergraduate engineer and research assistant from the University of Alabama in Huntsville's Propulsion Research Center (PRC).

    As part of a session titled "The Future of Nuclear and Breakthrough Propulsion", Agnew shared the results of a study he conducted titled "An Examination of Warp Theory and Technology to Determine the State of the Art and Feasibility".
    Make it so.
    "Scientists also estimate that the total energy requirement would be equivalent to the mass of Jupiter"

    Hm

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    Super Moderator Bronzeage's Avatar
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    In the meantime we're trying to figure out if the radiation absorbed during a flight to Mars will kill the astronauts, or if the loss of bone mass will leave them unable to function in gravity.

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    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    That's all very nice, but there's not much to be excited about until engineers start to take warp drives seriously.

    Scientists have an unfortunate habit of declaring something "possible" and then muttering under their breath about "within fifty kilometres of the event horizon of a rotating black hole", "assuming the existence of matter with negative mass", "as long as the energy available is at least six days of total solar output", and/or "for a spherical, frictionless horse, in a perfect vacuum".

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    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    LOL, I did consider putting it in pseudoscience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    That's all very nice, but there's not much to be excited about until engineers start to take warp drives seriously.

    Scientists have an unfortunate habit of declaring something "possible" and then muttering under their breath about "within fifty kilometres of the event horizon of a rotating black hole", "assuming the existence of matter with negative mass", "as long as the energy available is at least six days of total solar output", and/or "for a spherical, frictionless horse, in a perfect vacuum".
    Are there non- rotating black holes?

    Also it does say, right there in the article, the energy equivalent of one Jupiter mass. I believe that's ever so slightly more than six days of solar output.

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    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokodo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    That's all very nice, but there's not much to be excited about until engineers start to take warp drives seriously.

    Scientists have an unfortunate habit of declaring something "possible" and then muttering under their breath about "within fifty kilometres of the event horizon of a rotating black hole", "assuming the existence of matter with negative mass", "as long as the energy available is at least six days of total solar output", and/or "for a spherical, frictionless horse, in a perfect vacuum".
    Are there non- rotating black holes?
    Probably not, but they were the type first hypothesised by Schwarzschild, mainly because the maths is a lot simpler if you ignore angular momentum. Most black holes are presumed to rotate very rapidly indeed due to their small radii, and the large angular momenta of their parent stars.
    Also it does say, right there in the article, the energy equivalent of one Jupiter mass. I believe that's ever so slightly more than six days of solar output.
    Which rather underscores my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Radiation heat transfer to the cosmic round. The heat loads are low enough. The space shuttle could not stay up if the bay doors could not open exposing radiators.

    Search on ISS heat radiation cooling. A liquid coolant is run through the station and out through radiators. At a given temperature differential between the radiators and background X watts/square meter can be transferred. X depending on radiator parameters like emissivity.

    The heat load on Starship Enterprise would cook the crew.

    You can look at the size of the ISS radiators. Then imagine a nuclear reactor on an interplanetary ship generating thousands of kilowatts.
    Black Body radiator at 293K radiates 5.67e-8*pow(293,4) = 418 W/m^2
    According to google Enterprise is 289.7 meters so it can easily have 80,000 m^2 of radiators. That's 33.4 megawatt of radiation.
    Crew size ranges from 1000 to 6000. So in worst case it's about 5 kilowatt per person, more than enough. Fully passive cooling. With 350K radiators output doubles to 850 W/m^2, of course one would have to use heat pump for that. Also not all equipment have to work at 293K, engine can work at 2000K and have their own passive cooling, even computers can be kept separate and have higher temperature.
    Multiply by something like 0.5 for emissivity and other factors. A true BB is theoretical. Here on Erath using something like carbon lamp black you can get 0.98 emissivity under controlled conditions. No cooling system is 100% efficient.

    Any power generated in the ship shows up as heat. It is distributive, it does not matter how you separate it. Using heat pumps only makes the heat load worse. I have used thermoelectric coolers.
    Of course sttar ship Enterprise will warp trailing trailing radiators. The old SciFi show Andromeda trailed cables as radiators.

    And what materials would you use for 2000k?

    Considerer a atypical heat sink with multiple parallel fins for electronics. On inner fins they radiate to each other for a net radiation of zero. Imagine a space ship with a nuclear reactor on a boom. First there is thermal conduction along the boom to the ship. Second the reactor section will radiate to the rest of the ship. The ship will want to go to equilibrium with itself as well as the background.

    It is far more difficult than you think.

    The solar panels generate about 100kw, plus body heat of crew. The radiators are about 500ft^2.

    100kw/500ft^2 for approximately .2kw/ft^2.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...tation#Systems
    https://www.nasa.gov/content/cooling...afe-productive.

    80,000 m^2 easy?
    Last edited by steve_bank; 10-02-2019 at 03:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    One problem ST did not address was heat. A starship is a vacuum bottle. Even a small amount of heat generated in the ship will eventually reuse temperature to unlivable levels. Any propulsion system and energy system not 100% efficient would be impossible.
    So how ISS, satellites and other space probes manage to work? How Earth itself manage to keep more less constant temperature? Or Sun?
    Ever heard about heat radiation?
    Radiation heat transfer to the cosmic round. The heat loads are low enough. The space shuttle could not stay up if the bay doors could not open exposing radiators.

    Search on ISS heat radiation cooling. A liquid coolant is run through the station and out through radiators. At a given temperature differential between the radiators and background X watts/square meter can be transferred. X depending on radiator parameters like emissivity.

    The heat load on Starship Enterprise would cook the crew.

    You can look at the size of the ISS radiators. Then imagine a nuclear reactor on an interplanetary ship generating thousands of kilowatts.

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    Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    One problem ST did not address was heat. A starship is a vacuum bottle. Even a small amount of heat generated in the ship will eventually reuse temperature to unlivable levels. Any propulsion system and energy system not 100% efficient would be impossible.
    So how ISS, satellites and other space probes manage to work? How Earth itself manage to keep more less constant temperature? Or Sun?
    Ever heard about heat radiation?
    Radiation heat transfer to the cosmic round. The heat loads are low enough. The space shuttle could not stay up if the bay doors could not open exposing radiators.

    Search on ISS heat radiation cooling. A liquid coolant is run through the station and out through radiators. At a given temperature differential between the radiators and background X watts/square meter can be transferred. X depending on radiator parameters like emissivity.

    The heat load on Starship Enterprise would cook the crew.

    You can look at the size of the ISS radiators. Then imagine a nuclear reactor on an interplanetary ship generating thousands of kilowatts.
    Black Body radiator at 293K radiates 5.67e-8*pow(293,4) = 418 W/m^2
    According to google Enterprise is 289.7 meters so it can easily have 80,000 m^2 of radiators. That's 33.4 megawatt of radiation.
    Crew size ranges from 1000 to 6000. So in worst case it's about 5 kilowatt per person, more than enough. Fully passive cooling. With 350K radiators output doubles to 850 W/m^2, of course one would have to use heat pump for that. Also not all equipment have to work at 293K, engine can work at 2000K and have their own passive cooling, even computers can be kept separate and have higher temperature.

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