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  1. Top | #341
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Way to miss all of the points, Lion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    BTW - why do you keep referring to yourself as "we" "our" "us" ?
    Because we are royalty. Egads, man, how have you missed our tiara?

    <=======

  2. Top | #342
    Elder Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    The parable of the elephant is just a massive failure of humility. "All these people with wrong ideas about God, and yet I am one of the few who can see the wider picture and recognise that their disputes are errors caused by differing perspectives".

    How awe strikingly humble that position is.

    Only Lion can see the whole elephant.
    Wait! That was an argument for

    I think it was representative of all the times people blindly attest some portion of their life to a sky deity. God made me good at baskestball. It was time for Nana to pass on. It was a miracle I survived. All these blindfolded people attesting their completely unrelated life events to the same invisible deity.

  3. Top | #343
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    The parable of the elephant is just a massive failure of humility. "All these people with wrong ideas about God…
    No the blind men and elephant motif does NOT show the blind men as wrong. It shows them all as partially RIGHT. As theists, their claim that God exists in some form is 100% correct.

    As for humility...

    "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
    Job 11:7 (NIV)

  4. Top | #344
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    The parable of the elephant is just a massive failure of humility. "All these people with wrong ideas about God…
    No the blind men and elephant motif does NOT show the blind men as wrong. It shows them all as partially RIGHT. As theists, their claim that God exists in some form is 100% correct.

    As for humility...

    "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
    Job 11:7 (NIV)
    It is much like Superman fans describing Superman. One says he is faster than a speeding bullet. One says he's more powerful than a locomotive. One says he can leap over tall buildings in a single bound. One says he can change the course of mighty rivers. One says he can bend steel in his bare hands. etc. etc.

    They each only have part of the imaginary description of an imaginary being.

  5. Top | #345
    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    The parable of the elephant is just a massive failure of humility. "All these people with wrong ideas about God…
    No the blind men and elephant motif does NOT show the blind men as wrong. It shows them all as partially RIGHT. As theists, their claim that God exists in some form is 100% correct.

    As for humility...

    "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
    Job 11:7 (NIV)

    Yes, I can. For example:

    The moral nature of mankind argument.

    If God creates man, he must design man that he creates. That includes man's moral nature. god then has three possible choices.

    1. God creates man with an evil moral nature.
    2. God creates man with an indifferent moral nature.
    3. God creates man with a good moral nature.

    Man has no libertarian free will. His free will, if any, is dependent on his moral nature, created and endowed upon man by God.
    If God choose 1. or 2., man will go astray morally due solely and only to God's choice of what moral nature mankind will be created to have. If for a fact, God is perfectly good, as the Bible explicitly claims, God is fair, just, merciful and compassionate, god must choose 3., to create mankind with a good moral nature.

    -----

    There is more along these lines. Working out the claims about God taken to their logical conclusion demonstrates that God is not a viable proposition. I have a few more disproofs along these lines.
    Cheerful Charlie

  6. Top | #346
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    The parable of the elephant is just a massive failure of humility. "All these people with wrong ideas about God…
    No the blind men and elephant motif does NOT show the blind men as wrong. It shows them all as partially RIGHT.
    ...on the basis of the assumption that YOU are 100% right. As I said, a massive failure of humility.
    As theists, their claim that God exists in some form is 100% correct.
    In your not at all humble and completely baseless opinion.
    As for humility...

    "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
    Job 11:7 (NIV)
    No, you can't. Perhaps you should stop using a tale that depends on the assumption that you can.

    The only way to know that each blind man is describing a part of a larger whole is to know the larger whole. But nobody does. So you have zero basis to assert that that wider whole exists (they could each be describing totally unconnected phenomena); except your massively arrogant belief that YOU understand the bigger picture.

  7. Top | #347
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    As for me, I accept what the bible says about God - that nobody knows EVERYTHING there is to know about God. How does that make me arrogant?

    So, we have ten blind men all agreeing that something exists + me agreeing with them.

    And one totally humble and completely open-minded atheist shouting...
    "THATS NOT #!&@§¥! EVIDENCE"
    "YOU'RE ALL DELUDED OR LYING
    "

  8. Top | #348
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    As for me, I accept what the bible says about God - that nobody knows EVERYTHING there is to know about God. How does that make me arrogant?

    So, we have ten blind men all agreeing that something exists + me agreeing with them.

    And one totally humble and completely open-minded atheist shouting...
    "THATS NOT #!&@§¥! EVIDENCE"
    "YOU'RE ALL DELUDED OR LYING
    "
    I claim to know all there is to know about these things called gods, namely that they are ghosts. And further, ghosts are not real. So there it is, all one needs to know about gods.

    If someone wishes to call me a god, like one of the authors of the mythical protagonist of the canonical gospels has done, that's just giving something another name. So I would be me and also a god. Easy peasy all in one.

  9. Top | #349
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    As for me, I accept what the bible says about God - that nobody knows EVERYTHING there is to know about God. How does that make me arrogant?
    THAT doesn't make you arrogant. But your claim that the ten blind men are all experiencing aspects of a single whole most certainly does - and it contradicts both the bible quote, and your purported acceptance of it.

    So, we have ten blind men all agreeing that something exists + me agreeing with them.
    Which adds up to eleven totally unrelated claims, which you arrogantly claim to know are all claims about a single entity. You cannot, by your own admission, know that. So it's either a lie, or a total failure of reason on your part.
    And one totally humble and completely open-minded atheist shouting...
    "THATS NOT #!&@§¥! EVIDENCE"
    "YOU'RE ALL DELUDED OR LYING
    "
    I'm not shouting. I'm merely observing and reporting the deep flaws in your reasoning.

    That you feel that I must be shouting, or closed minded, is simply an attempt to cast my reasoned analysis as emotional, irrational, and flawed, so that you can dismiss it - because the alternative would be to accept that you are very badly mistaken.

  10. Top | #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post

    Yes, I can. For example:

    The moral nature of mankind argument.

    If God creates man, he must design man that he creates. That includes man's moral nature. god then has three possible choices.

    1. God creates man with an evil moral nature.
    2. God creates man with an indifferent moral nature.
    3. God creates man with a good moral nature.
    No. Man is not created good and man is not created evil. Man has both inclinations. The evil inclination is called Yetzer Hara and the good inclination is called Yetzer Ha tov. and life is the battle between them.

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