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Thread: EAC: We're doing a good job!

  1. Top | #41
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    You got me wrong. The Ten Commandments STILL STAND!! This IS what we will be Judged by! GOD cannot take-back or break any covenant or agreement made with man. We will fall-short of the commandments of course, henceforth ... we need ... a SAVIOR!
    We will fall short because the standards are impossible to achieve for humans that were created broken by Biblegod. We will even be judged for the thought crime of coveting things, our neighbors' cattle, their slaves, their wives and so on. And the only way out of a doomed afterlife is to submit to this god, mind and spirit, and spend our lives as slaves. The game was rigged from the start.
    In all religious reality, not religious fantasy, that's in fact the greatest commandment, that you're screwed so suck it up and just be a good slave. I say religious reality because I'm assuming that a religious person can also make rational observations and form rational conclusions, at least some of the time.

    We've had enough discussion about how religious people spend 99.9999% of their lives doing wholly non-religious things, that their behavior is no different herein from anyone atheist. They undertake a bit of what they perceive to be good-luck-bringing behavior otherwise, but not much, which consists primarily of talking the talk. Big woot. And this is a good thing, not a bad thing.

    The essential behavioral difference is that they possess and use a religious vocabulary of fantasy words. Again, big woot.

  2. Top | #42
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    You got me wrong. The Ten Commandments STILL STAND!! This IS what we will be Judged by! GOD cannot take-back or break any covenant or agreement made with man. We will fall-short of the commandments of course, henceforth ... we need ... a SAVIOR!
    We will fall short because the standards are impossible to achieve for humans that were created broken by Biblegod. We will even be judged for the thought crime of coveting things, our neighbors' cattle, their slaves, their wives and so on. And the only way out of a doomed afterlife is to submit to this god, mind and spirit, and spend our lives as slaves. The game was rigged from the start.
    Sin doesn't even come into it. The instructions are contradictory; They are impossible to obey for any person or thing, including any gods.

    To give just one example:
    Thou shalt not kill
    Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

    So, I meet a witch. What does god command me to do in this situation?

    Apparently, god either: Meant something different from what is clearly stated in at least one of these cases; or god's commands here are in fact mistranslations, and not what god actually said; or one or both commands are now obsolete; or one or both commands are limited in scope, and apply only to very specific instances (despite these limitations not being mentioned in the text); or some other weaselly shit that ignores the fact that a moment ago we were being told that the commandments given by god in the bible are a set of instructions from the ultimate authority, which must be obeyed at all times if we wish to avoid eternal damnation.

    If god can't write clear and detailed instructions that don't contradict each other, then the whole exercise of trying to obey him is futile. (And of course, this remains true if there are no gods, and the instructions were written by humans).

    The bible isn't a set of instructions, it's a Forer Effect text - it says whatever the person reading it wants it to say.

  3. Top | #43
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Omigod, no one rushes to defend orthodoxy as swiftly or fervently as an atheist! The handsome irony of it.
    It’s not really ironical, in my opinion.

    The religionists have a book. They brandish the book to control society. They claim it is divine. Then they go about acting as if it is not, until they are in a position to try to control society, then it’s back to orthodoxy.
    Yes, but when you meet someone who isn't in fact wagging a book, or just isn't wagging a book in the way you're most familiar with, you're like "Well you're not a REAL Christian then." If Learner of all people isn't a true Christian, there must not be very many true Christians.
    I think you missed what I was conveying.

    THEY, not me, claim the book is divine and appropriate for oppression.
    Then others of them, wag THE SAME BOOK. Indeed, even the others who discount portions of the book and claim, like you, to be different, are utterly unwilling to tear out the pages that offend them.

    Until they do that, they are wagging the same book. And they clearly convey that there is something about it that they are unwilling to call human and publish without.

    So I say to them, they are not a “real” whateveritis because they carry the book and call parts of it divine but parts of it not and will not desecrate it, even the human parts. Showing how they treat the WHOLE book for all of us to see. They aren’t real to their book and they aren’t real to their denial of the book.

    You can be whatever you want. You call yourself “Real Christians,” but when you carry around and quote from a text that you don’t follow but can’t discard, it sure doesn’t sound real at all.

  4. Top | #44
    Formerly Joedad
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    It's fair to say that people worship the idea that their book is special, without seeing all the contradictions and instructions that they do not live by or even know are in their book. They like the coziness and belief that their book is all they need to know. Their book isn't even a book, it's a collection of translations and redactions from different centuries, places and anonymous authors, which is why it has so many contradictions.

  5. Top | #45
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Yes, but when you meet someone who isn't in fact wagging a book, or just isn't wagging a book in the way you're most familiar with, you're like "Well you're not a REAL Christian then." If Learner of all people isn't a true Christian, there must not be very many true Christians.
    I think you missed what I was conveying.

    THEY, not me, claim the book is divine and appropriate for oppression.
    Then others of them, wag THE SAME BOOK. Indeed, even the others who discount portions of the book and claim, like you, to be different, are utterly unwilling to tear out the pages that offend them.

    Until they do that, they are wagging the same book. And they clearly convey that there is something about it that they are unwilling to call human and publish without.

    So I say to them, they are not a “real” whateveritis because they carry the book and call parts of it divine but parts of it not and will not desecrate it, even the human parts. Showing how they treat the WHOLE book for all of us to see. They aren’t real to their book and they aren’t real to their denial of the book.

    You can be whatever you want. You call yourself “Real Christians,” but when you carry around and quote from a text that you don’t follow but can’t discard, it sure doesn’t sound real at all.
    So the only options are worshiping books or burning books? Love of something must preclude critical reflection on it, or it isn't real love?

  6. Top | #46
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    So the only options are worshiping books or burning books? Love of something must preclude critical reflection on it, or it isn't real love?
    Sweet Merciful False Dichotomy Straw Man, Politesse!
    Not what I said.

  7. Top | #47
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    So the only options are worshiping books or burning books? Love of something must preclude critical reflection on it, or it isn't real love?
    Sweet Merciful False Dichotomy Straw Man, Politesse!
    Not what I said.
    Well, clarify then. What the hell is wrong with admiring a book but also applying critical thought to its contents? Why should anyone care about your notions of ideological purity, in fact?

  8. Top | #48
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Well, clarify then. What the hell is wrong with admiring a book but also applying critical thought to its contents? Why should anyone care about your notions of ideological purity, in fact?
    When that book is used to oppress, and those using it to oppress count YOU as one of their number because you carry the same book they carry, then it functionally matters that you give them cover.

    If a sect decided to re-print the bible with the nasty oppressive shit not included, it would separate the un-oppressive believers from the oppressive ones. But one has to wonder why they don’t and won’t re-print a non-oppressive bible.

    Why do you think they don’t and won’t? Why do you think people carry around a bible of which they admire just parts, and refuse to disavow the parts that zealots are counting on you to provide cover for?

    Why do you admire a book that says a woman should be forced to marry a rapist? Why do you admire a book that says you should kill people of different faiths? Why do you admire a book that condones slavery? Why do you admire a book that contains stories of men who would be willing to sacrifice their own children? Why do you admire a book that recounts a planet-wide mass murder?

    The other Christians see someone who carries a bible and think, “One of us, see how numerous we are! This is what makes us a “Christian NationTM! And why we are in the right to pass oppressive laws!”

    I don’t have notions about ideological purity. I have notions about what the devotion to the bible as a whole with no parts removed does to my society. It strengthens the zealots, to the detriment of us all.

  9. Top | #49
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    ^ ^ ^

    You should like the Jefferson Bible. Thomas Jefferson (or as I call him uncle Tommy) edited the Bible giving his version. He omitted the Old Testament and, in the New Testament, he cut out all the miracles and references to heaven and hell. Jesus became pretty much just a kindly old philosopher.

    But then I don't know of anyone who calls themselves Christian who like it... actually, I only know a couple Christians who even know he compiled it.

  10. Top | #50
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    So we would be more "true" if we... censored books??

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