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Thread: EAC: We're doing a good job!

  1. Top | #61
    Formerly Joedad
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    As an historical artifact the bible is something useful, it's like fossilized bones. But as a guide as to how to live one's life it is useless without ignoring large contradictory parts. It's like my stating that all the books at my library are my guide to how I live my life. Clearly many are not.

    The bible is a little condensed library that very, very few christians ever bother to read or read to their children. They just see it as some kind of symbol.

  2. Top | #62
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    Yes, indeed. What I wish to know: where are the sermons being preached on...
    all the tribes that deserved to be exterminated? (DEUT 7)
    the requirement to execute anyone who teaches you to worship a different god (DEUT 13)
    how to beat your slaves to death legally (EX 21)
    the foolproof way to use muddy water to catch your wife in adultery (NUM 5)
    the requirement to pay your taxes and not resist them (ROMANS 13)
    Wherever that church is, I'll attend. It'd be cheaper than buying Adam Sandler DVDs.

  3. Top | #63
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Maybe you missed that the topic is the Bible. If we were discussing zucchini would you think I was obsessed with zucchini?
    I wouldn't support treating any book that way, I value books far more than religions.
    You would make for a piss poor parent if you would tell your kids to use a how-to book that had sections that you knew would result in harm to them. A good parent would tear out or blacken those sections of an otherwise helpful guide before directing their children to follow it.
    I see we do not agree on parenting any more than we do on literary theory. Which is unsurprising given your conservative tendencies. My child and I would have a discussion about why I felt the instructions were in error, but I would not go ripping up books for them.

    I said you were obsessing about the Bible because you were establishing special rules for it. But apparently not. You're an equal opportunity book ripper.

  4. Top | #64
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Maybe you missed that the topic is the Bible. If we were discussing zucchini would you think I was obsessed with zucchini?
    I wouldn't support treating any book that way, I value books far more than religions.
    You would make for a piss poor parent if you would tell your kids to use a how-to book that had sections that you knew would result in harm to them. A good parent would tear out or blacken those sections of an otherwise helpful guide before directing their children to follow it.
    I see we do not agree on parenting any more than we do on literary theory. Which is unsurprising given your conservative tendencies. My child and I would have a discussion about why I felt the instructions were in error, but I would not go ripping up books for them.

    I said you were obsessing about the Bible because you were establishing special rules for it. But apparently not. You're an equal opportunity book ripper.
    "Book ripper"? Bull shit.

    If you went through the how-to book with your kid pointing out the errors and having him strike them out or make bold error notations in the book so he wouldn't forget and mistakenly follow bad instructions later then that is the same result as you striking them out.

    I see books as useful for a few different and independent purposes.
    ... As pure entertainment.
    ... Learning the views of others.
    ... Learning history.
    ... Learning how things work.
    ... How-to books as learning the best procedure for accomplishing a desired goal.
    ... etc.

    A book that has egregious errors and heinous lessons should not be presented as a guide to "a proper life" to those who's minds are being shaped... especially if the one presenting it knows of the errors.

    As ideologyhunter posted above, show me a church that has sermons pointing out to the congregation all the absurdities in the Bible and you will have a fan. Unfortunately, church leaders present the Bible as the infallible word of god even though they know better if they attended seminary.

  5. Top | #65
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    There is a huge difference between education and censorship. With education, we are empowered to make rational choices in what we encounter or conclude. With censorship, we are disempowered, the choice having been made "for our own good" by someone else.

    There are, of course, many such churches. As before in this very discussion, when atheists encounter such Christians, rather than learning anything from the exchange, they say "well you are not a REAL Christian then" or "Well those are not the Christians I was talking about" and ignore whatever has just been pointed out, not even bothering to remember that they ever met a liberal before.

  6. Top | #66
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    There is a huge difference between education and censorship. With education, we are empowered to make rational choices in what we encounter or conclude. With censorship, we are disempowered, the choice having been made "for our own good" by someone else.
    It is well known that kids in their teens believe they are invincible. They take extraordinary risks even though their parents have 'educated' them on the dangers. It is the parents' responsibility to try to protect them. For instance, I personally wouldn't want them reading about and learning ingenious methods of defeating safety devices on something like power tools even though I would encourage them to learn the proper use of those tools. Many kids, even though they were 'educated' to follow safety procedures, will bypass them if they know how and think it makes the work easier. "I told him not to do that" does not replace a missing arm.
    There are, of course, many such churches. As before in this very discussion, when atheists encounter such Christians, rather than learning anything from the exchange, they say "well you are not a REAL Christian then" or "Well those are not the Christians I was talking about" and ignore whatever has just been pointed out, not even bothering to remember that they ever met a liberal before.
    Logical error. You are mixing general and specific.

    I know and have known several Christians who are not fundamentalists, but who acknowledge the absurdities in the Bible. My criticism is those who refuse to admit (or maybe are ignorant) of them.

  7. Top | #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    So we would be more "true" if we... censored books??
    How do you get from:
    "I don't agree with certain parts of the Bible and I removed those portions from my copy"
    to:
    "The book should be censored before it is distributed to the public"?

  8. Top | #68
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    So we would be more "true" if we... censored books??
    How do you get from:
    "I don't agree with certain parts of the Bible and I removed those portions from my copy"
    to:
    "The book should be censored before it is distributed to the public"?
    What would be the point of removing portions from just your own personal copy without distributing it or encouraging others to do the same?

    I mean, presumably you remember what parts you took out, so I don't see how going wild with a magic marker is supposed to create any sweeping social changes as described above.

    Indeed, if no one even knows you did it, how is that functionally different from just not being a fucking literalist in the first place, aside from the one-time thrill of defacing a book?

  9. Top | #69
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    So your problem isn't the book. It's that other people claim any religious identity at all.
    My goodness. How many times in one thread can you utterly misstate my clear point? It can’t be accidental at this point.

    I have a problem with the book. It invites oppression. It wouldn’t be a big deal except for how many people wag it around as something “sacred” and important. And that wouldn’t be a problem if the only people wagging it were the ostensibly small group of fanatics. But the fanatics are bolstered in their oppression by the loyalty shown by all the people who claim to be moderate or liberal, but who wag the SAME book, giving cover to the zealots as some kind of majority.

    And I know at this point you’ll say, “so you’re saying I don’t know how to read,” or some other absurd straw man, and you’ll pretend you don’t understand what I wrote at all, but I write this clarification not for you, but for the others reading the exchange who are not driven to erect an unrecognizable straw man to avoid facing the relevant point.

  10. Top | #70
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    You are obsessing over the Bible. I wouldn't support treating any book that way, I value books far more than religions.
    I also value books far more than religions. But I sure don’t insist on using the first edition no matter what advances are made in knowledge!

    Take for instance the “Bible” of my profession...

    The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics is a comprehensive one-volume reference resource for science research, currently in its 100th edition (ISBN 978-1138367296 with 1532 pages, 1000 black-and-white illustrations, June 7, 2019, Editor-in-Chief John R. Rumble). It is sometimes nicknamed the "Rubber Bible" or the "Rubber Book", as CRC originally stood for "Chemical Rubber Company".

    One Hundredth edition. 100th.
    Hugely valuable. Not uneditable, though. That would be stupid.

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