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Thread: String Theory vs E8 and Quantum Gravity Research vs ?

  1. Top | #11
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    Whenever I see a word like ontological I tune out. My paradigm is modern scince devvolopes models based on math, observation, and experiment that maps inputs to outputs.

    Anything beyond tat for me is metaphysics and assigning philosophical meaning. From Durand's History Of Philosophy that which can be quantified is science, the rest is philosophy and religion.

    Don't have a clue what QM is not action at a distance means. QM is action at a distance via fields albeit at very small distances.Transistors operate via fields across inter-atomic spaces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Whenever I see a word like ontological I tune out. My paradigm is modern scince devvolopes models based on math, observation, and experiment that maps inputs to outputs.

    Anything beyond tat for me is metaphysics and assigning philosophical meaning. From Durand's History Of Philosophy that which can be quantified is science, the rest is philosophy and religion.

    Don't have a clue what QM is not action at a distance means. QM is action at a distance via fields albeit at very small distances.Transistors operate via fields across inter-atomic spaces.

    As Brian Greene puts it:

    ''Wave functions - the probability waves of quantum mechanics - evolve in time according to precise mathematical roles, such as the Schrodinger equation (or its more precise relativistic counterparts, such as the Klein-Gordan equation). This informs us that quantum determinism replaces Laplace's classical determinism Knowledge of the wave functions of all of the fundamental ingredients at some moment in time allows a ''vast enough'' [Laplace] intelligence to determine the wave functions at any prior or future time.

    Quantum determinism tells us that the probability that any particular event will occur at some chosen time in the future is fully determined by knowledge of the wave function at any prior time''

  3. Top | #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Whenever I see a word like ontological I tune out. My paradigm is modern scince devvolopes models based on math, observation, and experiment that maps inputs to outputs.

    Anything beyond tat for me is metaphysics and assigning philosophical meaning. From Durand's History Of Philosophy that which can be quantified is science, the rest is philosophy and religion.

    Don't have a clue what QM is not action at a distance means. QM is action at a distance via fields albeit at very small distances.Transistors operate via fields across inter-atomic spaces.

    As Brian Greene puts it:

    ''Wave functions - the probability waves of quantum mechanics - evolve in time according to precise mathematical roles, such as the Schrodinger equation (or its more precise relativistic counterparts, such as the Klein-Gordan equation). This informs us that quantum determinism replaces Laplace's classical determinism Knowledge of the wave functions of all of the fundamental ingredients at some moment in time allows a ''vast enough'' [Laplace] intelligence to determine the wave functions at any prior or future time.

    Quantum determinism tells us that the probability that any particular event will occur at some chosen time in the future is fully determined by knowledge of the wave function at any prior time''
    Sounds like semntics over dtermined and detrministic.

    Imagine a rectangular box potential well. The ends have infinite potential and are totaly reflective. A model of a gas laser.

    The solution to the WE for a rectangular well is sines and cosines. When the length of the well is multiple wavelengths of the laser light/photons a standing wave occurs in amplitue of the photons.

    The wave equation s a probability distribution function. This means to find the probability of an photon being in a volume dxdydz you integrate the probability distribution function. The result is the probability of photons in space yields a sine wave. Hence the term 'wave'. The WE is not some kind of independent existence. Wave equations are derived for specific conditions. The are probability distribution functions, like the normal or Gaussian curve or distribution. It is no more complicated than that.

    To say a set of equations is fully determined simply means it can be solved. Fully determined does not equate with deterministic versus probabilistic. Calculating linear distance from velocity and time s deterministic. Calculating the position of a photon in a laser is probabilistic.

    QM is daily routine in areas like solid state electronics and lasers. QM is a well developed set of math like LaPlace and Fourier transforms.

    If you want something really spooky how about going from time domain to frequency domain using LaPlace abd Fourier transforms? Is the frequency main a reality or just a mathematical function?

    Google rectangular potential energy well. The equations are derived from the SWE and there are animations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Sounds like semntics over dtermined and detrministic.
    Not necessarily just a matter of semantics. There are several versions of determinism and the term 'deterministic.' Hard determinism, soft determinism ---- ''Quantum determinism tells us that the probability that any particular event will occur at some chosen time in the future is fully determined by knowledge of the wave function at any prior time''

  5. Top | #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Sounds like semntics over dtermined and detrministic.
    Not necessarily just a matter of semantics. There are several versions of determinism and the term 'deterministic.' Hard determinism, soft determinism ---- ''Quantum determinism tells us that the probability that any particular event will occur at some chosen time in the future is fully determined by knowledge of the wave function at any prior time''

    That is the problem with philosophy and the differnce between philosophy and scince.

    Science is based on unambiguous definitions in Systems International.

    In engineering a problem is said to be fully determined when there are enough variables defined to solve the problem at hand. An indeterminate problem is one in whico there is not enough information tp calculate a solution.

    A problem in QM can be fully determined yet not be deterministic.


    If I am in an engineering discussion and say deterministic or stochastic or probabilistic the meaning is clear. If I am having a lunch table discussion deterministic and determinism can have a number of meanings.


    The philosophical debate centered on QM is about determinism which I equate to re predestiny. Is a person's life predetermined? Is the future fixed? There is no scientific answer.

    Books mixing modern physics with philosophy and mysticism go back to the 70s.

    If you have seen Depak Chopra speak on PBS show he weaves a blend of physics and the mystical. He has a following.

    From QM there is an underlying probability and uncertainty. A macro scale planet is simply the aggregate random states of a vast number of probabilities. A statistical average. A deterministic relation like time, speed and distance of a car is an illusion based on the large number of particles involved. A WE could be developed for a car in motion.


    QM is no different than other statistics. If I know the distribution of heights of people and I pick random people off the street there is a probability of the person being a certain height. I can not pick or predetermine what the height of a person selected will be, yet all people have a height. In QM all atoms are in motion and change. When measuring a quantum state we do not know what it will be, but we know the probability of a particular state. Benetah the jargon was regular probability and staistics.

    Back in the early 90s I took a modern physics night class because it was showing up in technical journals. It was anti climatic.
    Beneath ah the jargon was regular probability and statistics.

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