Page 14 of 16 FirstFirst ... 41213141516 LastLast
Results 131 to 140 of 151

Thread: Was this sexual assault? What's the appropriate response?

  1. Top | #131
    Contributor ruby sparks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    5,892
    Rep Power
    15
    Again, I'll say it seems harsh. Possibly very harsh. And I say that while agreeing that it was traumatic for the girl.

    And yet, British courts and British Law are not bonkers. They're not American for instance. Ha ha. But seriously, at least we know that this case went through a thorough legal process where both sides weree able to make their cases, and that there was a considered judgement. We, on the other hand, are all just speculating, and doing it on the basis of media articles to boot.

    Another way of looking at it is that the authorities have a duty. If they erred on the side of undue leniency.....if he had been let off...who knows...this might not have been the last incident.

  2. Top | #132
    Contributor ruby sparks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    5,892
    Rep Power
    15
    Here is the report in The Mirror Newspaper (not normally considered the most reliable or reputable, but hey). There is more detail than in the OP article, but nothing that I can see that helps speculators decide what they feel one way or the other:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...-make-20555360

  3. Top | #133
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,604
    Rep Power
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Here is the report in The Mirror Newspaper (not normally considered the most reliable or reputable, but hey). There is more detail than in the OP article, but nothing that I can see that helps speculators decide what they feel one way or the other:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...-make-20555360
    There sure were a whole lot of quotes from the complainant regarding how this event was so impactful on her ability to pass her school exams. She brought it up over and over again about how she was studying really hard but just could no longer focus because she was unexpectedly touched on the arm. It seems like it was very important for her to mention that impact repeatedly... why is that important to the case of it being sexual or non-sexual assault?
    I would like to know more about this guys history interacting with other people, as well as the history of the girl's propensity to make excuses and blame others for her scholastic performance.

    I'm not calling bullshit on the impact.. yet... but I do suspect a little fake outrage feeding her poor test-taking. This would not be, by any stretch, the first case of a woman suffering poor performance in school or work that had a 'fantastic' excuse for their poor performance.

  4. Top | #134
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    NOT laying back and thinking of England
    Posts
    8,665
    Archived
    3,655
    Total Posts
    12,320
    Rep Power
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Here is the report in The Mirror Newspaper (not normally considered the most reliable or reputable, but hey). There is more detail than in the OP article, but nothing that I can see that helps speculators decide what they feel one way or the other:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...-make-20555360
    There sure were a whole lot of quotes from the complainant regarding how this event was so impactful on her ability to pass her school exams. She brought it up over and over again about how she was studying really hard but just could no longer focus because she was unexpectedly touched on the arm. It seems like it was very important for her to mention that impact repeatedly... why is that important to the case of it being sexual or non-sexual assault?
    I would like to know more about this guys history interacting with other people, as well as the history of the girl's propensity to make excuses and blame others for her scholastic performance.

    I'm not calling bullshit on the impact.. yet... but I do suspect a little fake outrage feeding her poor test-taking. This would not be, by any stretch, the first case of a woman suffering poor performance in school or work that had a 'fantastic' excuse for their poor performance.
    I don't really know the particulars of this case aside from what is linked.

    I can say that I learned early on to trust my creepdar. One only learns this from experience and not the good kind.

    He may have been full of completely innocent intentions. She may have been overly nervous or upset about what happened because she's just an overly nervous person or because she's had some past bad experiences.

    Or he could have been trying to cop a feel, waiting for her so that he could increase his chances by catching her unawares and given this wasn't the first time he seemed to be laying in wait for her, he could have been working up to something much more sinister.

  5. Top | #135
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    8,429
    Archived
    17,741
    Total Posts
    26,170
    Rep Power
    69
    There's a reason why the story has coverage in a handful of disreputable and biased news media outlets. For one, what the Justices of the peace/magistrates told the offender is coming from him as opposed to going to the source to read a written opinion. Such soundbite is about 1% of the reasoning involved in an actual court. Also, like I wrote, the articles all talk about "crown court," which is where major cases may go and individuals can ask for trial by jury. That wasn't the case here for this minor offense...instead a summary judgment. Yet the very few articles keep bringing it up, some even stating falsely he could serve 10 years jail. Complete falsehoods. Exaggerations in the extreme. It doesn't make sense to me to use such source to draw conclusions but instead to suspend conclusions. When the actual sentence is given in a month, it makes sense to reevaluate claims about the sentence and check for any newly revealed data in accompanying articles. That's what I am going to do--wait.

  6. Top | #136
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,604
    Rep Power
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Here is the report in The Mirror Newspaper (not normally considered the most reliable or reputable, but hey). There is more detail than in the OP article, but nothing that I can see that helps speculators decide what they feel one way or the other:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...-make-20555360
    There sure were a whole lot of quotes from the complainant regarding how this event was so impactful on her ability to pass her school exams. She brought it up over and over again about how she was studying really hard but just could no longer focus because she was unexpectedly touched on the arm. It seems like it was very important for her to mention that impact repeatedly... why is that important to the case of it being sexual or non-sexual assault?
    I would like to know more about this guys history interacting with other people, as well as the history of the girl's propensity to make excuses and blame others for her scholastic performance.

    I'm not calling bullshit on the impact.. yet... but I do suspect a little fake outrage feeding her poor test-taking. This would not be, by any stretch, the first case of a woman suffering poor performance in school or work that had a 'fantastic' excuse for their poor performance.
    I don't really know the particulars of this case aside from what is linked.

    I can say that I learned early on to trust my creepdar. One only learns this from experience and not the good kind.

    He may have been full of completely innocent intentions. She may have been overly nervous or upset about what happened because she's just an overly nervous person or because she's had some past bad experiences.

    Or he could have been trying to cop a feel, waiting for her so that he could increase his chances by catching her unawares and given this wasn't the first time he seemed to be laying in wait for her, he could have been working up to something much more sinister.
    All of that is true.. yes, I agree. As for motive as to why she may have been "totally ruined by these two encounters that just had to be reported to the police"... that is what I have.. concerns... about. But agreed that there is insufficient information to get the "creep factor" from EITHER of them.

  7. Top | #137
    Contributor ruby sparks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    5,892
    Rep Power
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    I'm not calling bullshit on the impact.. yet... but I do suspect a little fake outrage feeding her poor test-taking.
    So you are, in fact, calling bullshit, more or less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    This would not be, by any stretch, the first case of a woman suffering poor performance in school or work that had a 'fantastic' excuse for their poor performance.
    From the limited facts that we do know, I see no good reason at all to think that she was not very upset and understandably so. I seriously doubt she reported it because of poor results, in what were mock exams. Nor do I think the police and prosecution service would have brought the case for those reasons either. Stating that it badly affected her revision (as it surely would be bound to) is perfectly reasonable and understandable and relevant to her describing the degree of trauma she suffered.
    Last edited by ruby sparks; 10-18-2019 at 09:56 AM.

  8. Top | #138
    Contributor ruby sparks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    5,892
    Rep Power
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    But agreed that there is insufficient information to get the "creep factor" from EITHER of them.
    So on the basis of what we know, you think it equally possible that either or both of them had a "creep factor"?

    I find that odd. Heading too readily towards victim-blaming even.

  9. Top | #139
    Contributor repoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    6,422
    Archived
    2,280
    Total Posts
    8,702
    Rep Power
    73
    Is Gun Nut saying that the convicted defendant's own words are betraying creepiness accidentally?

    I don't think he is saying the plaintiff is creepy.

  10. Top | #140
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,388
    Rep Power
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    He was not "hiding". You are introducing this element. He was looking at the hedge.
    He was not "looking" at the hedge. You are introducing this element. According to the girl, he was "facing" the hedge. Either way, it's indicative of someone attempting to hide (or being caught in some manner), particularly in light of:

    'I saw him facing a hedge and I thought it was really weird. As I walked towards him, he suddenly swung round so he was facing me.
    Yes, it could have been a remarkable coincidence that on this routine day of facing hedges--like all kids do these days--he "suddenly swung round" at the exact instance that she was near enough for him to touch her, if it weren't for the facts that (a) he seemed to the girl to be reaching out to touch her breast and (b) he repeated his behavior days later, only in a bolder fashion.

    So, in light of everything we have so far (which isn't much) taken as a whole, is it more likely that he saw her walking in the distance coming toward him, panicked, wasn't sure what to do, so he turned away and ended up facing a hedge (in the way people caught doing something will try to pretend they're just doing anything else than what they were caught doing), waited for her to get close enough for him to suddenly swing round to try and grab her breast, or it was his regular hedge facing day and the distraction from focusing on that particular fascinating hedge was so great that he tried to simply stabilize himself by reaching out to her and was so embarrassed by his actions on hedge facing Wednesdays that he--days later--tried to explain what a coincidence it all was, but on that day too, he somehow became innocently unstable and touched her a second time just to again right himself?

    as strongly indicated by the fact that, once she got close enough to him, he suddenly sprang out at her with the apparent intention of touching her on her breast,
    That is not apparent. It was speculation on the part of the girl.
    Do you not know what the word "apparent" means?

    but because she moved, he ended up touching her arm--is itself, at the very least, assault. Minor, but assault nonetheless.
    I already said it was common assault.
    "Common"? So you agree he assaulted her twice, what you are having troubles with is understanding how sexual assault isn't actually sexual. Got it. It's common.

    That a supposedly chronically shy and awkward person does roughly the exact same overt action to her--only in a more direct and less awkward manner, including deliberate eye contact while touching her--several days after being rejected previously by her, however, puts the earlier event in particular into a more alarming light.
    Only if you already believed his malintent in the first place.
    No, precisely the opposite as I just pointed out. It was the second incident that served to shed light on the first.

    not just some bizarre random act; and the admission that he recognised her adding to the premeditation
    No--it does not make it premeditated.
    "Make it." It adds to the argument that it was premeditated in exactly the manner I described.

    in both instances. He was rejected, yet that somehow emboldened him to act again, only in a more direct manner.

    That he used the defense that he was chronically shy and awkward likewise adds to the suspicion, since people suffering from such conditions generally do not (a) make any such bold moves or, (b) after having made one such attempt that failed try to do the exact same thing to the same person again.

    And that was his only excuse for his actions.
    I didn't say his actions were not weird or inappropriate.
    That wasn't about you.

    I said they don't look like sexual assault.
    That is.

    So if you take that away, what you have--at least prima facie--is someone acting both times out of premeditation; both times physically touching the girl against her wishes and without her consent; both times in a sudden and thus threatening manner--the second time bolder than the first--with an excuse that actually contradicts his actions, not explains them.
    You only believe the 'excuse' contradicts them because you already believe he is manufacturing excuses.
    No, I "believe" the excuse contradicts them because the excuse contradicts them.

    He did not hide behind a hedge. He was staring at a hedge.
    You are introducing that element. He was facing a hedge.

    He then jumps out at her or suddenly turns toward her upon her approach and apparently tries to grab her breast, but she prevents him, says "Stop" (no mistaking that) and moves away from him into the street. He then moves away quickly (i.e., in a guilty fashion).
    People move away quickly from situations when they are embarrassed or scared, not just 'guilty'.
    And people move quickly away from situations when they are guilty.

    There is no mistaking the fact that he was openly rejected by the girl in no uncertain terms.
    So the fact that he--a supposedly chronically shy and awkward kid--would then days later do the same thing to the same person contradicts his claim of being a chronically shy and awkward kid.

    Part of the issue with being shy is that you will be rejected if you were to not be shy. Having his worst fear realized would shut him down further, not embolden him to do the same thing to the same person days later.

    Again, this is not an 80's teen movie, where the sidekick named "Booger" convinces the innocent hero to come out of his shell and try to rape the girl because that's what "real" women want. If his claim were at all true, being rejected like that on his first solo attempt to "make a friend" would have sent him into deep remission, not somehow jazzed him into acting again in the same manner to the same person days later.

    That's what happens to rapists, but not to chronically shy teenagers.

    If that were the end of it, then, like the girl, none of us probably would have thought much more about it. But it wasn't the end of it. Her rejection escalated matters, not ended them. That alone is a big yellow flag warning.

    So, again, without going any further than just the two accounts we have in the papers, you have premeditation; escalation after being rejected; contradictory defense excuse; and two counts of assault (i.e., touching her against her will).
    There's no evidence of premeditation
    There is. Your turn.

    The defence is only "contradictory" if you think everybody responds to the same stimulus the same way.
    No, it's contradictory to claim to be suffering from a condition that, were it true would actually prevent him from acting in the manner he acted. Twice.

    So, while we have all noted that we don't have enough information, his story as it stands does not add up.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •