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Thread: Choosing to wear hijab is an endorsement of the oppression that created the custom

  1. Top | #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thebeave View Post

    I wonder if the Egyptian girls and German girls are thinking this about each other:
    Well, only one of those women is right about the other's attire. The blonde with the ponytail has her eyes covered but also her breasts and genitals.

    And any culture that would allow you to wear something as "skimpy" as what the blonde is wearing would also allow you to wear something much more conservative. Any culture where a burka is the norm is going to be far less tolerant of wearing something skimpy.
    Apparently this should not be true in some people’s eyes. Some people wish to ban hijabs or burkas while expressing no qualms about bikinis.
    The issue is duress. Many of us feel the burqas are generally not worn by a free choice.

  2. Top | #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    The issue is duress. Many of us feel the burqas are generally not worn by a free choice.
    Surely it's both. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't.

  3. Top | #103
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    So a bunch of women in niqabs beat and strangled a woman to death just for suggesting she might dispense with her niqab? And a pregnant woman was whipped and murdered by other women after she spoke to a western journalist? Wtf?

  4. Top | #104
    Contributor ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starwater View Post
    There is a man in my office building that wears a turban every day. I think I should be allowed to gape at his balding head and find that turban restricts his rights in getting a sunburn on his pate.
    The turban seems like quite a good comparison. But for it to be on a par, would we not need a general background where it is associated with being worn under (mostly patriarchal) duress, sometimes very severe duress indeed?

    I am not saying there should be a ban on hijabs (though some do, including some islamic feminists), and I also think women, especially in the 'west' (where there is a different context compared to some countries) should be allowed to wear one, and not face discrimination or abuse. But at the same time I think the general background issue is relevant. I believe it would be fair to air the view (and it has been aired, including by some islamic feminists) that merely wearing one adds to the endorsement of a wider underlying oppression of the gender of the wearer, at least somewhat. It is a valid point of view, imo. A valid criticism if you like. Of itself.

    One can still recognise that especially in countries where women have more freedoms, some will freely choose to wear it, in which cases it is a lot like the turban, where the decision is (imo) generally contaminated with nothing other than what I am going to call woo (albeit there may also be cultural aspects and traditions woven in with the religious beliefs) if seen without the problematical background issues.
    Last edited by ruby sparks; 10-18-2019 at 01:28 PM.

  5. Top | #105
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    Another comparison (in the opposite direction) might be to consider a case where a woman, perhaps a celebrity, acts in a way that encourages sexual objectification of herself. She is free to do it, and no one should stop her, but the point can be made by those with certain concerns that she is perhaps not doing women in general a favour, in a world where women are arguably sexually objectified too often.

    It's a limited point, of course. I'm not suggesting it's the only or overriding consideration.

  6. Top | #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    - How can you tell if a Muslim woman was not made to wear it. Especially a Muslim woman living in "Little Mogadishu" aka Clarkston, Ga or some other heavily Islamic community where it would become "talk of the town" if Mahnoor didn't don her niqab to go to the DeKalb Industrial Way Kroger?


    If anything rules are circumvented to give special leeway to people who practice "funny religions". Like allowing a woman to wear her burqa in her driver's license photo completely defeating the purpose of such photos.
    Everyone here is for a society that allows women and other people to choose their clothing as they wish--except for those who wish to forbid burqas or hijab because it makes you feel bad to think they maybe are oppressed. Not bad enough not to impose your own tastes and political views upon women you don't know but still, it's the thought that counts, right? Just so long as it's some man or men making the rules.

    At my house, it has been a frequently discussed hypothetical of wondering whether someone could get away with a bank robbery by robbing the place with a full beard and longer hair and then, immediately after the get away, becoming clean shaven with short cropped hair.

    Pssst: I'm an old lady and I know that there is actually the technology to do retina scans.



    3. The Egyptian women were competing for the first time.
    Is that why they did not know how to dress?
    Seriously, dude: what happened to you that you only value women for how much skin they display? Why is that more important to you than the skills competitors might develop and display?

    Bikinis are not that comfortable especially if they ride up your ass cheeks.
    If burqinis were really so superior to bikinis, don't you think more teams would wear them? FWIW, I think it's only a matter of time before either Islamic countries and/or #MeToo feminists force IOC to make female beach volleyball players dress more modestly.
    Nobody here claimed that burqinis are superior to bikinis. Should all men be forced to wear skinny jeans or low slung jeans because some prefer them?

    How do you know that the women wearing bikinis are not now being forced to compete wearing costumes they find uncomfortable?

    I am 100% positive that I would make you more comfortable if I wore a burkini than if I work a bikini in public.

  7. Top | #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Everyone here is for a society that allows women and other people to choose their clothing as they wish--except for those who wish to forbid burqas or hijab because it makes you feel bad to think they maybe are oppressed.
    Unless you have suddenly become nudists, no, this isn't true. What do you think the reaction would be if the French Olympic women's volleyball team decided to show up and compete nude?

  8. Top | #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    Personally, I like that ad. I can see how it might offend some. Those who freely choose to wear them for instance.

    But in all honesty, I have limited sympathy, albeit some. I'm not going to applaud the wearing of such things. As the OP suggests, they come with baggage, imo. Islamic fundamentalist baggage. And Islamic fundamentalism is about as toxically patriarchal as it gets in the world these days. Even those 'western' women freely choosing it will (I assume) be swayed by religion, and specifically religion of that general sort (because it's notable that it's a fairly new thing, in the main, and announced itself, or was announced, probably by men, after decades of liberalisation, and what I would call progress, in middle eastern countries).

    Also, the modesty thing. Fine. But there are many ways to dress and appear modestly without that.

    Just my personal opinion.

  9. Top | #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post

    Apparently this should not be true in some people’s eyes. Some people wish to ban hijabs or burkas while expressing no qualms about bikinis.
    The issue is duress. Many of us feel the burqas are generally not worn by a free choice.
    And some of you see nothing wrong with using duress to impose your opinions and political views on women who will suffer the consequences while you get to carry on your smug merry way.

  10. Top | #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Everyone here is for a society that allows women and other people to choose their clothing as they wish--except for those who wish to forbid burqas or hijab because it makes you feel bad to think they maybe are oppressed.
    Unless you have suddenly become nudists, no, this isn't true. What do you think the reaction would be if the French Olympic women's volleyball team decided to show up and compete nude?
    I’m not at all certain how this is a response to the part of my post you quoted.

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