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Thread: Choosing to wear hijab is an endorsement of the oppression that created the custom

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Why is wearing a hijab oppression? It is a head scarf that doesn't cover the face.

    The niqab (apparently that is a thing too) and burka would be the oppressive form of clothing which acts to almost make a woman's presence vanish in public.
    Women occassionally wearing a head scarf is not a hijab. Women wearing one to represent their Islamic beliefs is a hijab, and it is only represents that and is only a custom b/c of centuries of violence forcing women to wear it.
    Looking it up...

    A hijab in common English usage is a veil worn by some Muslim women in the presence of any male outside of their immediate family, which usually covers the head and chest.

    Hmm, I suppose that portion is bullshit.
    That definition fits perfectly with what I said. It is tied to misogynistic practices within Muslim culture and enforced by Islamic laws which are the sole reason that it has an association with being Muslim, which in turn is the reason why Muslim women in the west "choose" to wear it. Your attempt to pretend the it is nothing but a head scarf and that any women that puts on a scarf when it's cold is doing the same thing as wearing a hijab in intellectually dishonest bullshit. That's like claiming that blackface is nothing but "wearing makeup"

  2. Top | #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

    The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.
    How is a head scarf being modest? Other than preventing people from having Farrah Fawcet hair?
    A headscarf isn't being modest, but a headscarf isn't a hijab and a hijab is not merely a headscarf, despite your attempts at false equivalence. A hijab is when a headscarf is worn as part of the Muslim custom, which is solely a custom created to force women to cover up around males, and that violent force is the sole reason why it is part of Muslim culture, which in turn is the sole reason why Muslim women in the west choose" to wear one beyond random occasions as a fashion accessory or shield from cold.

  3. Top | #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Looking it up...

    A hijab in common English usage is a veil worn by some Muslim women in the presence of any male outside of their immediate family, which usually covers the head and chest.

    Hmm, I suppose that portion is bullshit.
    That definition fits perfectly with what I said. It is tied to misogynistic practices within Muslim culture and enforced by Islamic laws which are the sole reason that it has an association with being Muslim, which in turn is the reason why Muslim women in the west "choose" to wear it. Your attempt to pretend the it is nothing but a head scarf and that any women that puts on a scarf when it's cold is doing the same thing as wearing a hijab in intellectually dishonest bullshit.
    Is there some other sort of text I'm supposed to write to elaborate on conceding a point?

  4. Top | #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

    The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.
    How is a head scarf being modest? Other than preventing people from having Farrah Fawcet hair?
    Because in many cultures, including Western culture up until very recently, modesty included covering your hair.

  5. Top | #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Looking it up...

    A hijab in common English usage is a veil worn by some Muslim women in the presence of any male outside of their immediate family, which usually covers the head and chest.

    Hmm, I suppose that portion is bullshit.
    That definition fits perfectly with what I said. It is tied to misogynistic practices within Muslim culture and enforced by Islamic laws which are the sole reason that it has an association with being Muslim, which in turn is the reason why Muslim women in the west "choose" to wear it. Your attempt to pretend the it is nothing but a head scarf and that any women that puts on a scarf when it's cold is doing the same thing as wearing a hijab in intellectually dishonest bullshit.
    Is there some other sort of text I'm supposed to write to elaborate on conceding a point?
    Sorry. People don't usually refer to their own comment as "bullshit", even in the rare instance of conceding the comment was wrong. You're fairly knowledgeable, so I assumed you had to know that a hijab was particular to being worn around males. So, I assumed you were somehow suggesting that my tethering the hijab to Islamic misogyny was bullshit. My bad.

  6. Top | #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by J842P View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

    The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.
    How is a head scarf being modest? Other than preventing people from having Farrah Fawcet hair?
    Because in many cultures, including Western culture up until very recently, modesty included covering your hair.
    Correct. Religious based misogyny was used to coerce female appearance in many other societies as well, showing "modesty" as well as to signal that one was "married", which for women amounted to being owned in such societies.
    The reason it is no longer typical in the West is precisely b/c it was always a result of force and coercion. So, as soon as women were granted more freedom and more protection from violent coercion, they did away with the practice.

    IOW, it is a cultural practice that is inherently tethered to violent oppression of women, and has a very strong negative correlation with equal rights and personal liberty for women. The "choice" to do it is highly related to whether one was shaped by and/or continues to adhere to those ideologies that continue to use that form of female control, and therefore ties to societies controlled by such ideologies where such practices continue to be violently enforced.

  7. Top | #17
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    I don't think it is so customary anymore but in most Catholic churches until perhaps mid-20th century, women customarily covered their heads in church as a symbol of modesty and piety.

    Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.

  8. Top | #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    I don't think it is so customary anymore but in most Catholic churches until perhaps mid-20th century, women customarily covered their heads in church as a symbol of modesty and piety.

    Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.
    IOW, you think that no one should critique the content of another persons speech or the ethical consequences of their actions, unless they are the same gender as that person. That's gonna put a cramp in your efforts to criticize the misogynistic behaviors of men.

    Also, yes, religious misogyny was coerced on Christian women too. The practice of such head covering died as a direct result of women's rights being culturally advanced and women be able to shape their own customs without authoritarian coercion. It remains a strong custom in Islam b/c the majority of Muslims live in societies where Islam has authoritarian control over women, and thus reinforce that to be Muslim is to adhere to this oppressive custom, even if one lives in country where one could legally get away with not doing so.

  9. Top | #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    I don't think it is so customary anymore but in most Catholic churches until perhaps mid-20th century, women customarily covered their heads in church as a symbol of modesty and piety.

    Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.
    IOW, you think that no one should critique the content of another persons speech or the ethical consequences of their actions, unless they are the same gender as that person. That's gonna put a cramp in your efforts to criticize the misogynistic behaviors of men.

    Also, yes, religious misogyny was coerced on Christian women too. The practice of such head covering died as a direct result of women's rights being culturally advanced and women be able to shape their own customs without authoritarian coercion. It remains a strong custom in Islam b/c the majority of Muslims live in societies where Islam has authoritarian control over women, and thus reinforce that to be Muslim is to adhere to this oppressive custom, even if one lives in country where one could legally get away with not doing so.
    No, she's saying "I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear."

    Just that.

    Personally, I think the statement would be better as "I really wish people would quit trying to tell others what they can and cannot or should or should not wear."

    That is not saying anything about speech in general or the ethical consequences of actions; it takes as much critical view of assholes forcing women to wear as it does of assholes telling women what they should not wear. It says both behaviors, rightly are bigoted bullshit.

  10. Top | #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    I don't think it is so customary anymore but in most Catholic churches until perhaps mid-20th century, women customarily covered their heads in church as a symbol of modesty and piety.

    Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.
    IOW, you think that no one should critique the content of another persons speech or the ethical consequences of their actions, unless they are the same gender as that person. That's gonna put a cramp in your efforts to criticize the misogynistic behaviors of men.

    Also, yes, religious misogyny was coerced on Christian women too. The practice of such head covering died as a direct result of women's rights being culturally advanced and women be able to shape their own customs without authoritarian coercion. It remains a strong custom in Islam b/c the majority of Muslims live in societies where Islam has authoritarian control over women, and thus reinforce that to be Muslim is to adhere to this oppressive custom, even if one lives in country where one could legally get away with not doing so.
    No, she's saying "I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear."

    Just that.

    Personally, I think the statement would be better as "I really wish people would quit trying to tell others what they can and cannot or should or should not wear."
    So, if a person wears black-face or a t-shirt saying "I hate Ni&&ers!", you would tell everyone that it's none of their business and they shouldn't say anything about what other people wear.


    That is not saying anything about speech in general or the ethical consequences of actions; it takes as much critical view of assholes forcing women to wear as it does of assholes telling women what they should not wear. It says both behaviors, rightly are bigoted bullshit.
    Utter nonsense. What a person wears is an action and a form of speech. It can have consequences that impact others and thus is just as much part of ethics as how people vote and what they say. And the hijab is defined as part of a religious ideology and thus is inherently a speech act and endorsement of that ideology.

    What is bigoted is claiming people cannot voice their opinion about those consequences and ethics unless they are of a particular gender. IF you tell a white man not to wear black face are you being bigoted for telling them that if you are not a white man yourself? That is absurd. Criticizing the hijab is not about telling women what to wear as a women. Most woman don't and wouldn't freely choose to wear one, and the only reason it is only women wearing them is b/c of sexism in the first place. Your argument is like saying that if a group of women starting wearing a dress that said "Fags will go to hell", then it would be sexist to criticize them b/c it's women wearing it b/c it's a dress.

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