Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 25

Thread: !0 Commandments versus a legal system

  1. Top | #11
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Lebanon, OR
    Posts
    6,642
    Archived
    16,829
    Total Posts
    23,471
    Rep Power
    79
    Why not state them explicitly so that we can all know what we are talking about? Be careful about which version you list, because there is more than one in the Bible and more than one of the usual set of 10.

  2. Top | #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    239
    Archived
    1,524
    Total Posts
    1,763
    Rep Power
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    Why not state them explicitly so that we can all know what we are talking about? Be careful about which version you list, because there is more than one in the Bible and more than one of the usual set of 10.
    The framers felt the Constitution was crystal clear. Humans have trouble with words. Always have, always will.

  3. Top | #13
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    2,593
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    Why not state them explicitly so that we can all know what we are talking about? Be careful about which version you list, because there is more than one in the Bible and more than one of the usual set of 10.
    Your response does not make sense to me. What legal code has ever existed that did not need to be interpreted through some system of jurisprudence? No matter how "clear" a law is, HaRaAYaH's comment would still be relevant.

  4. Top | #14
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Oregon's westernmost
    Posts
    11,378
    Archived
    18,213
    Total Posts
    29,591
    Rep Power
    54
    The code is clear. What it means to those existing under it is arbitrated in court.

  5. Top | #15
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Lebanon, OR
    Posts
    6,642
    Archived
    16,829
    Total Posts
    23,471
    Rep Power
    79
    As to the 10C's, there are three sets. The Exodus 20, Exodus 34, and Deuteronomy 5 sets. The Exod 20 and Deut 5 ones are duplicates, and they are at the beginning of larger law codes. The Exod 34 one is a different one. The Ten Commandments - Both Sets

    Fun fact: a little after the Exod 20 set is that one should not walk upon an altar because one will expose oneself if one did.

    The Exod 20 / Deut 5 set:
    1. I am the Lord your God
    2. Don't worship any gods in preference to me (Exod 20) / other than me (Deut 5)
    3. Don't make depictions of anything or worship them
    4. Don't misuse My name
    5. Every seventh day is a holy day, and one must not work on that day
    6. Honor your father and mother
    7. Do not murder anyone
    8. Do not steal anything
    9. Do not falsely accuse anyone of anything
    10. Do not desire anything that your neighbor owns

    The Exod 34 set:
    1. Do not worship any god but Me
    2. Do not make any agreements with the other people who live on your land
    3. Do not make cast-metal statues of gods
    4. Observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread
    5. Offer your firstborn livestock animals to Me
    6. On each seventh day, do not work
    7. Observe the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Ingathering
    8. Be sure to make your offerings without yeast
    9. Offer your first harvests to Me
    10. Do not cook a baby goat in its mother's milk

  6. Top | #16
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    seattle
    Posts
    5,023
    Rep Power
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    All cultures had codes for civil, moral, and religious issues. The Code Of Hammurabi.

    Google bible 613 commandments. It pulls out all the biblical dictates. Compared to the Code Of Hammurabi the Hebrew codes were scattered over centuries with no consistency and some rather bizarre crimes and punishments. What you expect of a superstitious tribal culture.

    Hardly a moral code for modern times.
    You must stop doing this. It's really not intellectually sound. It's not what the 613 commandments say, it's how Judaism interprets them. All words need interpretation. The US Constitutions seems clear to me, nut it's not what I say it is, it's what the Supreme Court says it is. SO the eye for an eye crap is not literal. In Judaism it's monetary damages. The death penalty stuff. Judaism is opposed to the death penalty. And those 613 rules only apply to Jews.

    All laws of any society are about control.
    Functionally the 10C amd the 613 were all a legal-social system. It defined tribal social bounds and behavior and defined punishments.

    It was all a legal system functionally, invoking god is irrelevant which is my point. Saying by the leadership it is all from god who will punish you is just an enforcement tool.

    What Jews do today is irrelevant to the discussion. Jews today run from ultra conservative to liberal with different interpretations.

    As to words and meaning, the founders put prohibitions in the constitution against religious tests for office and creating laws to promote religion because they understood the issues and conflicts surrounding religion.e Religious law is open to wide interpretations.

    If you are uncomfortable on secular discussion of religion then do not read the threads and put me on ignore.

    If you want to discuss Jews and the death penalty that would be a political discussion on Israel.

  7. Top | #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    239
    Archived
    1,524
    Total Posts
    1,763
    Rep Power
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Functionally the 10C amd the 613 were all a legal-social system. It defined tribal social bounds and behavior and defined punishments.
    We agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    It was all a legal system functionally, invoking god is irrelevant which is my point. Saying by the leadership it is all from god who will punish you is just an enforcement tool..
    Well Judaism would disagree with you. I'm not speaking about American Jews today many of whom long ago abandoned any belief in God

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    What Jews do today is irrelevant to the discussion. Jews today run from ultra conservative to liberal with different interpretations.
    This has nothing to do with Jews today.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    As to words and meaning, the founders put prohibitions in the constitution against religious tests for office and creating laws to promote religion because they understood the issues and conflicts surrounding religion.e Religious law is open to wide interpretations.
    They also prohibited the government from interfering with the free exercise of religion. They did not want one religion dominating the government. It's clear the founders expected a secular government and a religious society.


    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    If you are uncomfortable on secular discussion of religion then do not read the threads and put me on ignore..
    I;m not uncomfortable being around people who disagree with me. I expect people here will challenge my beliefs and I have no issue with it. I'll have an intellectual conversation with anyone, I just want it based on reality.




    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    If you want to discuss Jews and the death penalty that would be a political discussion on Israel.
    Well, here you go again. Your knowledge of the subject matter is limited.

    I said Judaism is opposed to the death penalty not Jews of today.

    A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called a murderous one. R. Eleazar ben Azariah says 'Or even once in 70 years.' R. Tarfon and R. Akiva said, 'If we had been in the Sanhedrin no death sentence would ever have been passed
    That's three sages from the Talmudic era, not three guys from the mens club at the local shul. The Rabbis erected every possible barrier to the implementation of the death penalty. So again, my point is this: You can disagree with whatever any region teaches about anything but you have to argue (to be intellectually honest) against what the religion holds, not what the text says. The Torah (the five books of Moses) contain about 80,000 words, Yet, the Babylonian Talmud which is basically an interpretation of the same is 1.8 million words.

  8. Top | #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    239
    Archived
    1,524
    Total Posts
    1,763
    Rep Power
    43
    The Jewish Version:
    The Exod 20 / Deut 5 set:
    1. I am the Lord your God
    2. Don't worship any gods in preference to me Don't make depictions of anything or worship them
    3. Don't misuse My name
    4. Remember the Sabbath day & keep it holy.
    5. Honor your father and mother
    6. Do not murder anyone
    7. Do not commit adultery
    8. Do not steal anything
    9. Do not falsely accuse anyone of anything
    10. Do not desire anything that your neighbor owns

    The first five are considered commandments between god and man and the second 5 are between man and man

  9. Top | #19
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Lebanon, OR
    Posts
    6,642
    Archived
    16,829
    Total Posts
    23,471
    Rep Power
    79
    Fun fact. In the Book of Exodus, Moses gets very mad when he sees his fellow Israelites worship a golden statue of a bull. In his rage, he smashes the first set of tablets of the Law, the Exodus-20 set. But God obligingly makes a second set of tablets of the Law, the Exodus-34 set.

    Why Christians get the 10 commandments wrong | Salon.com by Valerie Tarico
    That’s what makes all of the pages devoted to useless things like tribal spats, genealogies, rules for slaveholders, menstrual rituals, misogynist trash talk and loquacious donkeys such a wasted opportunity. But even that would be less painful if core moral mandates like the Ten Commandments were of higher caliber.

    Secularists had a good laugh a few years back, when Stephen Colbert nailed Georgia Representative Lynn Westmoreland, who had co-sponsored a bill requiring display of the Ten Commandments in the House and Senate chambers. “What are the Ten Commandments?” asked Colbert. Westmoreland came up with three.
    VT's statement of them:

    Exodus 20, KJV:
    1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
    3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
    4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    5. Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
    6. Thou shalt not kill.
    7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
    8. Thou shalt not steal.
    9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
    10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

    Exodus 34, KJV:
    1. Thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
    2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
    3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
    4. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
    5. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
    6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
    7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.
    8. Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
    9. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
    10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

  10. Top | #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    239
    Archived
    1,524
    Total Posts
    1,763
    Rep Power
    43
    My favorite version of the 10 commandments:


    (View video on YouTube)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •