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Thread: Planned Parenthood awarded $2.3 million for secret videos

  1. Top | #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    It's funny how little Lion has to say about my right to a portion of his bloodstream, the air in his lungs, and the better part of his abdominal cavity. I'm way past the point of any dispute over being alive or not, so I should have unrestricted access to them all in the event that I need them to survive. And once he agrees to provide them he can't change his mind until I don't need them anymore. I sure love being the vulnerable, powerless, defenseless party in this power dynamic that entitles me to Lion's entire immune system and a portion of everything he eats or drinks!
    Lion will not address this because he refuses to acknowledge that the argument even exists. He doesn't have an easy, canned response, and he cannot easily construct a caricature of this argument in order to misrepresent it with a strawman, therefore he needs to pretend that the argument was never made. He does this a lot, and not just when discussing abortion.

  2. Top | #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    It's funny how little Lion has to say about my right to a portion of his bloodstream, the air in his lungs, and the better part of his abdominal cavity. I'm way past the point of any dispute over being alive or not, so I should have unrestricted access to them all in the event that I need them to survive. And once he agrees to provide them he can't change his mind until I don't need them anymore. I sure love being the vulnerable, powerless, defenseless party in this power dynamic that entitles me to Lion's entire immune system and a portion of everything he eats or drinks!
    Lion will not address this because he refuses to acknowledge that the argument even exists. He doesn't have an easy, canned response, and he cannot easily construct a caricature of this argument in order to misrepresent it with a strawman, therefore he needs to pretend that the argument was never made. He does this a lot, and not just when discussing abortion.
    And so we come down to the difference between human (genetic) and human (person). A (person) has to accept certain obligations to society, foremost seeking consent for action; without seeking consent, it can be at best a (proto-person), getting consent where none was sought, and more likely will be merely (genetic). He does not have the complexity in his model to accept or understand a different model of ethical investiture beyond his "god said so" model. Or in more academic terms: "from whence comes piety?"

  3. Top | #53
    Veteran Member PyramidHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    It's funny how little Lion has to say about my right to a portion of his bloodstream, the air in his lungs, and the better part of his abdominal cavity. I'm way past the point of any dispute over being alive or not, so I should have unrestricted access to them all in the event that I need them to survive. And once he agrees to provide them he can't change his mind until I don't need them anymore. I sure love being the vulnerable, powerless, defenseless party in this power dynamic that entitles me to Lion's entire immune system and a portion of everything he eats or drinks!
    Lion will not address this because he refuses to acknowledge that the argument even exists. He doesn't have an easy, canned response, and he cannot easily construct a caricature of this argument in order to misrepresent it with a strawman, therefore he needs to pretend that the argument was never made. He does this a lot, and not just when discussing abortion.
    And so we come down to the difference between human (genetic) and human (person). A (person) has to accept certain obligations to society, foremost seeking consent for action; without seeking consent, it can be at best a (proto-person), getting consent where none was sought, and more likely will be merely (genetic). He does not have the complexity in his model to accept or understand a different model of ethical investiture beyond his "god said so" model. Or in more academic terms: "from whence comes piety?"
    My point was that such a distinction need not even be invoked, since in my hypothetical we are both fully grown human adults capable of giving and understanding consent. Still, I don't believe I have the right to Lion's blood for one second longer than he wants to give it to me, regardless of whether or not he consented to it in the past. It's part of him as a being, and I'm not allowed to lay claim to it for any reason.

  4. Top | #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post

    And so we come down to the difference between human (genetic) and human (person). A (person) has to accept certain obligations to society, foremost seeking consent for action; without seeking consent, it can be at best a (proto-person), getting consent where none was sought, and more likely will be merely (genetic). He does not have the complexity in his model to accept or understand a different model of ethical investiture beyond his "god said so" model. Or in more academic terms: "from whence comes piety?"
    My point was that such a distinction need not even be invoked, since in my hypothetical we are both fully grown human adults capable of giving and understanding consent. Still, I don't believe I have the right to Lion's blood for one second longer than he wants to give it to me, regardless of whether or not he consented to it in the past. It's part of him as a being, and I'm not allowed to lay claim to it for any reason.
    Thus invoking the distinction between (genetic) and (person). By acting without seeking consent, you demonstrate that you are not (person) and by not offering consent he is withholding the necessary investiture to make you (proto-person), thus you lack ethical investiture in the context. Thus he has no ethical obligation to let you live as a parasite.

    Hence why this comes down to a conflation, and a problematic model re: ensoulment.

    As a Christian, he SHOULD be reasonably expected to accept your parasitism: killing you risks his soul for ending your life, for destroying the beloved of God. But somewhere, way deep down, he has some acceptance of the fundamentals of ethical investiture even if dimly.

  5. Top | #55
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    The challenge was to present them from your perspective. I did that.
    I thought that's what the contest of ideas was - giving my point of view of their arguments.
    That's what I did.

    I agree. You and others all have a good grasp of the pro-choice perspectives.
    You have to, otherwise you wouldn't know why you disagree with them.

    The fact is, I did and still can see your perspective, indeed also how it doesn't make sense...
    OK. The FACT is that I can see your perspective too. And it doesn't make sense to me.
    So I must have passed the challenge. YAY.
    Go me!!

  6. Top | #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    It's funny how little Lion has to say about my right to a portion of his bloodstream, the air in his lungs, and the better part of his abdominal cavity. I'm way past the point of any dispute over being alive or not, so I should have unrestricted access to them all in the event that I need them to survive. And once he agrees to provide them he can't change his mind until I don't need them anymore. I sure love being the vulnerable, powerless, defenseless party in this power dynamic that entitles me to Lion's entire immune system and a portion of everything he eats or drinks!
    Lion will not address this because he refuses to acknowledge that the argument even exists. He doesn't have an easy, canned response, and he cannot easily construct a caricature of this argument in order to misrepresent it with a strawman, therefore he needs to pretend that the argument was never made. He does this a lot, and not just when discussing abortion.
    .. and when you point out that he is making a false statement, he takes his ball and leaves crying about being called a liar... for lying.

  7. Top | #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    The challenge was to present them from your perspective. I did that.
    I thought that's what the contest of ideas was - giving my point of view of their arguments.
    That's what I did.

    I agree. You and others all have a good grasp of the pro-choice perspectives.
    You have to, otherwise you wouldn't know why you disagree with them.

    The fact is, I did and still can see your perspective, indeed also how it doesn't make sense...
    OK. The FACT is that I can see your perspective too. And it doesn't make sense to me.
    So I must have passed the challenge. YAY.
    Go me!!
    The proof is in the pudding: you have yet to paraphrase the perspective in any accurate way.

    All you have so far is your continued bald claims to understand it without demonstrating that understanding. Of course I don't expect YOU to be capable of making sense of it, because it uses big words and nuance.

    Do you want to try again?

  8. Top | #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    The challenge was to present them from your perspective. I did that.
    I thought that's what the contest of ideas was - giving my point of view of their arguments.
    That's what I did.

    I agree. You and others all have a good grasp of the pro-choice perspectives.
    You have to, otherwise you wouldn't know why you disagree with them.

    The fact is, I did and still can see your perspective, indeed also how it doesn't make sense...
    OK. The FACT is that I can see your perspective too. And it doesn't make sense to me.
    So I must have passed the challenge. YAY.
    Go me!!
    No, you are not comprehending. The challenge was to accurately represent the pro-choice argument positions, as demonstration that you understand what they are (it does not mean you agree - just that you comprehend).

    For example... one argument that pro lifer's give is that a fetus at any stage of development is a living human entitled to all human rights. The pro choicer says that a fetus is not a living human and therefore is not entitled to any rights of a human being.

    You can state this as understanding of the dialog without subscribing to either... can't you? The "challenge" was about your capability to comprehend and / or be honest about the "other side" of the argument.

  9. Top | #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post

    I thought that's what the contest of ideas was - giving my point of view of their arguments.
    That's what I did.

    I agree. You and others all have a good grasp of the pro-choice perspectives.
    You have to, otherwise you wouldn't know why you disagree with them.



    OK. The FACT is that I can see your perspective too. And it doesn't make sense to me.
    So I must have passed the challenge. YAY.
    Go me!!
    No, you are not comprehending. The challenge was to accurately represent the pro-choice argument positions, as demonstration that you understand what they are (it does not mean you agree - just that you comprehend).

    For example... one argument that pro lifer's give is that a fetus at any stage of development is a living human entitled to all human rights. The pro choicer says that a fetus is not a living human and therefore is not entitled to any rights of a human being.

    You can state this as understanding of the dialog without subscribing to either... can't you? The "challenge" was about your capability to comprehend and / or be honest about the "other side" of the argument.
    At this point you should probably try your hardest to sort what you mean by "living human" as they are clearly unable to process one word in different ways in adjacent sentences, with respect to the source of ethical investiture in particular.

  10. Top | #60
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    It's funny how little Lion has to say about my right to a portion of his bloodstream, the air in his lungs, and the better part of his abdominal cavity.

    Are you a living human embryo?
    Am I your parent?
    Did you choose to place yourself in that womb?

    These are necessary considerations before I can decide whether or not it would be immoral
    to destroy you.

    ...I sure love being the vulnerable, powerless, defenseless party in this power dynamic that entitles me to Lion's entire immune system and a portion of everything he eats or drinks!
    Alive. Human. Powerless. Defenseless. Vulnerable. Not there by choice. <-- Just stop for a second and think about these.

    Reliant on a portion of their parent's bloodstream and nutrition because of
    ...you know...biology/nature.

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