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Thread: Why must theists prove god exists?

  1. Top | #121
    Shrunken Member WAB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    No. It says the rapist either;

    - gets the death penalty

    or

    - must OFFER to marry her.
    Double whammy. First, a woman is raped, then faces the possibility of marrying a rapist. As if the rape weren't punishment enough. There is no way a rapist would or could make a good husband. He would most likely be a brutal abuser - which he has already proved to be by being a rapist.

    Is a rapist somehow redeemed by offering to marry his victim?
    If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to a library. - Frank Zappa

  2. Top | #122
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Well I didn't want to go there because in this day and age, "no" means "no".
    #MeToo women can retrospectively withdraw consent. We have this new criminal offence called "inappropriate behaviour". And the ancient idea that not every suspected/alleged RapeTM was necessarily non-consensual seems incredible to the modern woke generation.

    But...the hermeneutics of these texts quite clearly shows that the word here, which is translated as rape, can mean something akin to seduction. And the inclusion of a category called "betrothed" amounts to the ancient equivalent of what today's SJW's would call a social construct - meaning whatever anyone wants it to mean.

    I argue that the restitution payment was a pragmatic alternative to the death penalty mutually agreed to by both parties - not imposed upon the victim.

  3. Top | #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Well I didn't want to go there because in this day and age, "no" means "no".
    Actually, no meant no in previous ages as well. It's not a recent thing. It's just that in previous ages, women weren't considered all that important, so raping them was less of a big deal. That didn't make it any less rape, though.

  4. Top | #124
    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    Can't say I blame you for not wanting to try to defend what you said earlier. It is clearly in disagreement with what the text says. There was no restitution payment option if you "seduced" a betrothed woman because there wasn't any provision for a betrothed woman to be sold.

    There was no "I'll take a stoning" option if you deflowered an unbetrothed virgin. You paid the father for devaluing his property and took home your consolation prize.

    And I maintain that these laws did absolutely nothing to protect the rights of the women in any instance. A raped woman had absolutely no incentive to cry rape after the fact, and she had every reason to keep her mouth shut.

  5. Top | #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Deuteronomy 22:

    28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

    29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days
    .

    I see nothing to indicate any sort of offer.
    The option to pay 50 shekels and marry the woman comes immediately after the preceding invocation of the death penalty for rape. It is clearly a restitution arrangement to avoid being stoned to death and save the otherwise unmarriageable woman from penury.
    Quite clearly, the text is a very early example of the Pottery Barn policy... you break it, you buy it.

  6. Top | #126
    Shrunken Member WAB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post

    The option to pay 50 shekels and marry the woman comes immediately after the preceding invocation of the death penalty for rape. It is clearly a restitution arrangement to avoid being stoned to death and save the otherwise unmarriageable woman from penury.
    Quite clearly, the text is a very early example of the Pottery Barn policy... you break it, you buy it.
    True. And IMO the worst aspect of all is that the feelings and wishes of the woman involved are not under consideration.
    If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to a library. - Frank Zappa

  7. Top | #127
    Veteran Member James Brown's Avatar
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    Would such a stance toward rape be acceptable today?

    Is there any civilization on Earth today that would say, "If you rape a teenage girl, you may pay her father a certain sum of money and marry her. That way you won't have to be executed for rape"?

  8. Top | #128
    Senior Member remez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Turning the question around for the theists if god exists and you have faith why must you prove it?
    Simply bc those theists that attempt to prove God exists have a different understanding of faith than you do.

    Many theists do indeed hide behind their "blind faith" and would not attempt to prove anything to you.
    But....
    Others reason that not all faith is blind and provide why their reasons are better than yours for your faith.

    The question seems silly.

  9. Top | #129
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Would such a stance toward rape be acceptable today?

    Is there any civilization on Earth today that would say, "If you rape a teenage girl, you may pay her father a certain sum of money and marry her. That way you won't have to be executed for rape"?
    At one time that was part of the Great Woo's plan for his people. It's intriguing how the Great Woo changes with the times.

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