Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 38

Thread: Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer

  1. Top | #1
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Lots of planets have a North
    Posts
    5,796
    Archived
    5,115
    Total Posts
    10,911
    Rep Power
    58

    Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer

    Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer - The partisan factions aren't fighting for anything more than the power to destroy each other.

    Identity established by mutual loathing is pretty much all there is to go on when partisans of the two factions so rapidly change positions, sometimes despising one another for holding fast to beliefs they themselves once supported. In their struggle for control of the government, it's all about loyalty and power, without any deeper meaning.

    ...

    Of course, Republicans downplay moral issues at a time when the president from their party shows every sign of being morally crippled, just as Democrats deemphasized morals when their own occupant of the White House had his sleaziness on display. Then as now, tribal affiliation overcame any supposed principles.

    ...

    Fundamentally, then, what defines Republicans and Democrats isn't programs or beliefs or ideology—it's achieving power and destroying the enemy in the process. What's done once power is achieved—beyond grinding "evil" and "immoral" enemies into dust—is secondary at best.

    Since platforms and ideas don't really matter, there's no room for finding common ground or cutting deals. Opposing political factions can compromise, for good or ill, on health care bills and defense schemes. But how do you split the difference when what separates you isn't a matter of firm values or principles, but a mutual desire to seize total control and to smash all who don't wear your gang colors?
    This explains why pointing out hypocrisy doesn't work anymore. If I were to post an Obama quote without attribution but a picture of Donald Trump, you'd all say "of course he believes that, he's evil orange Hitler."

  2. Top | #2
    Veteran Member Arctish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    4,423
    Archived
    4,540
    Total Posts
    8,963
    Rep Power
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer - The partisan factions aren't fighting for anything more than the power to destroy each other.

    Identity established by mutual loathing is pretty much all there is to go on when partisans of the two factions so rapidly change positions, sometimes despising one another for holding fast to beliefs they themselves once supported. In their struggle for control of the government, it's all about loyalty and power, without any deeper meaning.

    ...

    Of course, Republicans downplay moral issues at a time when the president from their party shows every sign of being morally crippled, just as Democrats deemphasized morals when their own occupant of the White House had his sleaziness on display. Then as now, tribal affiliation overcame any supposed principles.

    ...

    Fundamentally, then, what defines Republicans and Democrats isn't programs or beliefs or ideology—it's achieving power and destroying the enemy in the process. What's done once power is achieved—beyond grinding "evil" and "immoral" enemies into dust—is secondary at best.

    Since platforms and ideas don't really matter, there's no room for finding common ground or cutting deals. Opposing political factions can compromise, for good or ill, on health care bills and defense schemes. But how do you split the difference when what separates you isn't a matter of firm values or principles, but a mutual desire to seize total control and to smash all who don't wear your gang colors?
    This explains why pointing out hypocrisy doesn't work anymore. If I were to post an Obama quote without attribution but a picture of Donald Trump, you'd all say "of course he believes that, he's evil orange Hitler."
    Well, if you cherry pick and quote mine, you can make it sound like Josef Stalin was a tender-hearted humanitarian and Jonas Salk endorsed genocide. It isn't even hard.

    But if you want to accurately assess a person's beliefs and values you have to look beyond their occasional moment of pique or clumsy analogy. You have to try to understand what they think is important or unimportant, what's worth saving and what should be changed or discarded. And if you're trying to understand what a political party stands for, you have to look at what they do when they're in power.

    You might not be able to tell the difference between Trump and Obama, but I'd bet my next paycheck most people could easily sort their proposals into the correct columns.

  3. Top | #3
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Lots of planets have a North
    Posts
    5,796
    Archived
    5,115
    Total Posts
    10,911
    Rep Power
    58
    Fine.

    "We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country."

    "We are a nation of laws. Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable, especially those who may be dangerous. That’s why over the past six years deportations of criminals are up 80 percent, and that’s why we’re going to keep focusing on threats to our security,"

  4. Top | #4
    Veteran Member Arctish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    4,423
    Archived
    4,540
    Total Posts
    8,963
    Rep Power
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Fine.

    "We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country."

    "We are a nation of laws. Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable, especially those who may be dangerous. That’s why over the past six years deportations of criminals are up 80 percent, and that’s why we’re going to keep focusing on threats to our security,"
    The first one sounds like Trump and the second one is definitely Obama.

    Trump loathes the thought of non-whites pouring into the country and he typically employs Appeals to Emotions to justify his decisions. Also, he's not a big fan of that whole "nation of laws" thing.

    Obama believes in upholding the law, even laws that inconvenience him or hinder his ambitions. He made deporting undocumented criminals a priority. The explanation for that decision was pretty typical of Obama's speaking style: well reasoned and reasonable.

  5. Top | #5
    Contributor Trausti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Northwest
    Posts
    5,636
    Archived
    372
    Total Posts
    6,008
    Rep Power
    59
    Relationship of parties and policies

    An experiment we conducted with our colleagues at North Star Research in a poll for USA Today and the Bipartisan Policy Center illustrates the point (though I alone am responsible for any errors in interpretation here).

    We presented respondents with two different education plans, the details of which are unimportant in this context. What is important is that half the sample was told A was the Democratic plan and B was the Republican plan, while the other half of our national sample was told A was the Republican plan and B was the Democrats’ approach.

    The questions dealt with substantive policy on a subject quite important to most Americans — education — and issues that people are familiar with — class size, teacher pay and the like.

    Nonetheless, when the specifics in Plan A were presented as the Democratic plan and B as the Republican plan, Democrats preferred A by 75 percent to 17 percent, and Republicans favored B by 13 percent to 78 percent. When the exact same elements of A were presented in the exact same words, but as the Republicans’ plan, and with B as the Democrats’ plan, Democrats preferred B by 80 percent to 12 percent, while Republicans preferred “their party’s plan” by 70 percent to 10 percent. Independents split fairly evenly both times. In short, support for an identical education plan shifted by more than 60 points among partisans, depending on which party was said to back it.
    Other experiments elicit similar results. A study by Yale psychologist Geoffrey Cohen found that, absent partisan information, liberal students favored a welfare plan that was more generous than any existing policy, while conservatives favored a plan more stringent than any in existence. However, when told the stringent policy was the “Democratic plan,” liberals favored it and conservatives opposed it. When told the generous policy was the Republican approach, conservatives favored it and liberals opposed it. Again, partisanship is driving policy preference.

  6. Top | #6
    Veteran Member seyorni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    1,247
    Archived
    3,176
    Total Posts
    4,423
    Rep Power
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Fine.

    "We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country."
    What do you fear would happen? Are you just angry because they're flouting the rules?

    "We are a nation of laws. Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable, especially those who may be dangerous. That’s why over the past six years deportations of criminals are up 80 percent, and that’s why we’re going to keep focusing on threats to our security,"
    One method of disguising xenophobia is to label the others criminals, rapists, gang members, drug dealers, &c.

  7. Top | #7
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Lots of planets have a North
    Posts
    5,796
    Archived
    5,115
    Total Posts
    10,911
    Rep Power
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by seyorni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Fine.

    "We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country."
    What do you fear would happen? Are you just angry because they're flouting the rules?

    "We are a nation of laws. Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable, especially those who may be dangerous. That’s why over the past six years deportations of criminals are up 80 percent, and that’s why we’re going to keep focusing on threats to our security,"
    One method of disguising xenophobia is to label the others criminals, rapists, gang members, drug dealers, &c.
    Those quotes do not represent my point of view, they are just quotes.

    Obama quotes. Both of them.

  8. Top | #8
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Located 100 miles east of A in America
    Posts
    25,002
    Archived
    42,473
    Total Posts
    67,475
    Rep Power
    100
    Ah... the good ole False Equivalence via a Vacuum Fallacy. Wait... is that even a thing? Well, if not, it is now.

    Take a couple things, put them in a vacuum, and ignore everything else. SEE!!! THEY BE JUST AS BAD!

  9. Top | #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    always on the move
    Posts
    956
    Archived
    801
    Total Posts
    1,757
    Rep Power
    44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Ah... the good ole False Equivalence via a Vacuum Fallacy. Wait... is that even a thing? Well, if not, it is now.

    Take a couple things, put them in a vacuum, and ignore everything else. SEE!!! THEY BE JUST AS BAD!
    Yea, simply ignore all policy positions of each party, then claim they offer nothing. Sort of like there is no point in comparing two chefs. If you ignore all their food then the chefs offers nothing! Oh, offer a cracker from each with nothing on it to see if you can tell the difference.

  10. Top | #10
    Veteran Member PyramidHead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    RI
    Posts
    4,620
    Archived
    4,389
    Total Posts
    9,009
    Rep Power
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by marc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Ah... the good ole False Equivalence via a Vacuum Fallacy. Wait... is that even a thing? Well, if not, it is now.

    Take a couple things, put them in a vacuum, and ignore everything else. SEE!!! THEY BE JUST AS BAD!
    Yea, simply ignore all policy positions of each party, then claim they offer nothing. Sort of like there is no point in comparing two chefs. If you ignore all their food then the chefs offers nothing! Oh, offer a cracker from each with nothing on it to see if you can tell the difference.
    I'm going to defend Jason on this one (without necessarily defending the article or anything reason.com has to say); the point is that on ideology and/or policy, there are sometimes more similarities than differences when you peel away party affiliation as the most important variable in determining where a political figure stands. If you group by support for issues that libertarians care about, they all look like authoritarian statists and war hawks. If you group by the issues socialists care about, they all look like corporate shills and reactionaries. To say that such perspectives must be false because they don't regard whatever differences exist in your mind as important is begging the question; accordingly, to say that such perspectives are equivalent because, for different reasons, they disregard the differences you think are important is also lazy.

    EDIT: Attributing the Obama quote to Trump is, in the context of this thread, just... *chef's kiss*

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •