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Thread: Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    The first one sounds like Trump and the second one is definitely Obama.
    The first one is way too well spoken to be Trump. The second one refers to six years, and again, too well spoken to be Trump.

    Quote Originally Posted by President Guess Who
    Chain migration is a disaster, and very unfair to our country. The visa lottery is something that should have never been allowed in the first place. People enter a lottery to come into our country. What kind of a system is that? It is time for Congress to act and to protect Americans.

  2. Top | #12
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by marc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Ah... the good ole False Equivalence via a Vacuum Fallacy. Wait... is that even a thing? Well, if not, it is now.

    Take a couple things, put them in a vacuum, and ignore everything else. SEE!!! THEY BE JUST AS BAD!
    Yea, simply ignore all policy positions of each party, then claim they offer nothing. Sort of like there is no point in comparing two chefs. If you ignore all their food then the chefs offers nothing! Oh, offer a cracker from each with nothing on it to see if you can tell the difference.
    I'm going to defend Jason on this one (without necessarily defending the article or anything reason.com has to say); the point is that on ideology and/or policy, there are sometimes more similarities than differences when you peel away party affiliation as the most important variable in determining where a political figure stands. If you group by support for issues that libertarians care about, they all look like authoritarian statists and war hawks. If you group by the issues socialists care about, they all look like corporate shills and reactionaries. To say that such perspectives must be false because they don't regard whatever differences exist in your mind as important is begging the question; accordingly, to say that such perspectives are equivalent because, for different reasons, they disregard the differences you think are important is also lazy.

    EDIT: Attributing the Obama quote to Trump is, in the context of this thread, just... *chef's kiss*
    Could you cite these ideology/policy similarities? And can you show your work on how there are more similarities than differences?
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

  3. Top | #13
    Contributor PyramidHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post

    I'm going to defend Jason on this one (without necessarily defending the article or anything reason.com has to say); the point is that on ideology and/or policy, there are sometimes more similarities than differences when you peel away party affiliation as the most important variable in determining where a political figure stands. If you group by support for issues that libertarians care about, they all look like authoritarian statists and war hawks. If you group by the issues socialists care about, they all look like corporate shills and reactionaries. To say that such perspectives must be false because they don't regard whatever differences exist in your mind as important is begging the question; accordingly, to say that such perspectives are equivalent because, for different reasons, they disregard the differences you think are important is also lazy.

    EDIT: Attributing the Obama quote to Trump is, in the context of this thread, just... *chef's kiss*
    Could you cite these ideology/policy similarities?
    For policies, I would say the items on this list have fairly broad consensus in both parties, although the people who disagree are almost always Democratic.

    Support of Israel as a legitimate state
    Hostility towards Latin American countries who elect socialist leaders
    In favor of the continued existence of private health insurance
    Against the abolition of for-profit prisons
    Opposed to the nationalization of energy production
    Against the cancellation of student debt and medical debt
    Uninterested in high speed, free public transportation across the country
    In favor of NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP, and other such trade agreements
    Against nuclear energy
    Against national rent control
    Against reparations for blacks and indigenous people
    Acceptance of corporate money for campaigns
    Etc.

    Ideologically, the umbrella term for the above collection of policies is something like "neoliberal", which is a position characterized by a prioritization of markets as the primary driver of innovation and economic growth, with a corresponding disdain or reluctance about welfare programs, and an emphasis on individualism and psychological factors as drivers of behavior rather than economic ones. Real class differences are subsumed under the heading of "middle class" (which according to Liz Warren literally means anyone who is not a billionaire), and false divisions within the working class are created along racial and gender lines. In Marxist terms, this is what a bourgeois republic looks like, with the institutions of power and influence channeled toward reproducing the dominance of that class over the working class.

    And can you show your work on how there are more similarities than differences?
    The number of differences is not what's important, it's which differences are regarded as relevant or negligible, and that depends on one's ideology.

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    The OP does point the obvious that there is a lot of just pure partisan haranguing. But the OP is based on the logical fallacy that similarities on some issues means there are no differences on all issues.

  5. Top | #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer - The partisan factions aren't fighting for anything more than the power to destroy each other.

    Identity established by mutual loathing is pretty much all there is to go on when partisans of the two factions so rapidly change positions, sometimes despising one another for holding fast to beliefs they themselves once supported. In their struggle for control of the government, it's all about loyalty and power, without any deeper meaning.

    ...

    Of course, Republicans downplay moral issues at a time when the president from their party shows every sign of being morally crippled, just as Democrats deemphasized morals when their own occupant of the White House had his sleaziness on display. Then as now, tribal affiliation overcame any supposed principles.

    ...

    Fundamentally, then, what defines Republicans and Democrats isn't programs or beliefs or ideology—it's achieving power and destroying the enemy in the process. What's done once power is achieved—beyond grinding "evil" and "immoral" enemies into dust—is secondary at best.

    Since platforms and ideas don't really matter, there's no room for finding common ground or cutting deals. Opposing political factions can compromise, for good or ill, on health care bills and defense schemes. But how do you split the difference when what separates you isn't a matter of firm values or principles, but a mutual desire to seize total control and to smash all who don't wear your gang colors?
    This explains why pointing out hypocrisy doesn't work anymore. If I were to post an Obama quote without attribution but a picture of Donald Trump, you'd all say "of course he believes that, he's evil orange Hitler."
    It is becoming ever more axiomatic that the only thing that both parties can agree on is that libertarians are delusional.

    Of course, it is about political power. It always has been and it always will be. It is delusional to believe that politics is about ideological purity. Only someone with an ideology that is so impractical, that is so alien to history and to basic human nature can believe that ideological purity can provide a viable basis for governing a country.

    Some of us lived through the result of the prime example of ideological purity meeting reality when faced with actually governing a country when Marxian philosophy turned into the brutal authoritarian communism of Soviet Russia. Like libertarianism, Marx's philosophy is an anarchist one where governments would disappear to be replaced by a new spirit among men that has been suppressed forever by evil men wanting the power of government as a shortcut to enrich themselves.

    There are, of course, differences between the two. Marx's new man would believe that he is achieving his individual good by solely working for the common good while libertarianism's new man would be working solely for his individual good which would magically combine into bettering the common good. Neither is viable.

  6. Top | #16
    Contributor PyramidHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleDon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer - The partisan factions aren't fighting for anything more than the power to destroy each other.

    Identity established by mutual loathing is pretty much all there is to go on when partisans of the two factions so rapidly change positions, sometimes despising one another for holding fast to beliefs they themselves once supported. In their struggle for control of the government, it's all about loyalty and power, without any deeper meaning.

    ...

    Of course, Republicans downplay moral issues at a time when the president from their party shows every sign of being morally crippled, just as Democrats deemphasized morals when their own occupant of the White House had his sleaziness on display. Then as now, tribal affiliation overcame any supposed principles.

    ...

    Fundamentally, then, what defines Republicans and Democrats isn't programs or beliefs or ideology—it's achieving power and destroying the enemy in the process. What's done once power is achieved—beyond grinding "evil" and "immoral" enemies into dust—is secondary at best.

    Since platforms and ideas don't really matter, there's no room for finding common ground or cutting deals. Opposing political factions can compromise, for good or ill, on health care bills and defense schemes. But how do you split the difference when what separates you isn't a matter of firm values or principles, but a mutual desire to seize total control and to smash all who don't wear your gang colors?
    This explains why pointing out hypocrisy doesn't work anymore. If I were to post an Obama quote without attribution but a picture of Donald Trump, you'd all say "of course he believes that, he's evil orange Hitler."
    It is becoming ever more axiomatic that the only thing that both parties can agree on is that libertarians are delusional.

    Of course, it is about political power. It always has been and it always will be. It is delusional to believe that politics is about ideological purity. Only someone with an ideology that is so impractical, that is so alien to history and to basic human nature can believe that ideological purity can provide a viable basis for governing a country.

    Some of us lived through the result of the prime example of ideological purity meeting reality when faced with actually governing a country when Marxian philosophy turned into the brutal authoritarian communism of Soviet Russia. Like libertarianism, Marx's philosophy is an anarchist one where governments would disappear to be replaced by a new spirit among men that has been suppressed forever by evil men wanting the power of government as a shortcut to enrich themselves.
    AHAHAHAHAHAHA

    There are, of course, differences between the two. Marx's new man would believe that he is achieving his individual good by solely working for the common good while libertarianism's new man would be working solely for his individual good which would magically combine into bettering the common good. Neither is viable.
    It looks like both parties agree on more than libertarians, then. It's funny how, no matter what the topic, it just so happens that the mainstream of American political thought is in the ballpark of reality, and is the closest to a neutral, apolitical stance on history and economics that we can hope for.

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    Libertarianism castigates the current political landscape behind a shield of impractical ideology. In some charitable moments, I believe that this is the main attraction of libertarianism. That it allows the faithful to wash their hands of politics without putting themselves out there in any meaningful way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleDon View Post

    It is becoming ever more axiomatic that the only thing that both parties can agree on is that libertarians are delusional.

    Of course, it is about political power. It always has been and it always will be. It is delusional to believe that politics is about ideological purity. Only someone with an ideology that is so impractical, that is so alien to history and to basic human nature can believe that ideological purity can provide a viable basis for governing a country.

    Some of us lived through the result of the prime example of ideological purity meeting reality when faced with actually governing a country when Marxian philosophy turned into the brutal authoritarian communism of Soviet Russia. Like libertarianism, Marx's philosophy is an anarchist one where governments would disappear to be replaced by a new spirit among men that has been suppressed forever by evil men wanting the power of government as a shortcut to enrich themselves.
    AHAHAHAHAHAHA

    There are, of course, differences between the two. Marx's new man would believe that he is achieving his individual good by solely working for the common good while libertarianism's new man would be working solely for his individual good which would magically combine into bettering the common good. Neither is viable.
    It looks like both parties agree on more than libertarians, then. It's funny how, no matter what the topic, it just so happens that the mainstream of American political thought is in the ballpark of reality, and is the closest to a neutral, apolitical stance on history and economics that we can hope for.
    Yes, exactly. The political parties in the US are at each other's throats not because of differences between themselves but because they are so close to each other. There still is an American philosophy of government largely adhered to by both parties.

    I haven't read through the thread yet, but this idea certainly has already appeared in it.

  9. Top | #19
    Contributor PyramidHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleDon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PyramidHead View Post
    AHAHAHAHAHAHA

    It looks like both parties agree on more than libertarians, then. It's funny how, no matter what the topic, it just so happens that the mainstream of American political thought is in the ballpark of reality, and is the closest to a neutral, apolitical stance on history and economics that we can hope for.
    Yes, exactly. The political parties in the US are at each others throats not because of differences between themselves but because they are so close to each other. There still is an American philosophy of government largely adhered to by both parties.
    The fact that it's American, and not just "politics" or "economics" or "history", is what escapes the notice of people who parrot American Cold War talking points about the communist movement in the 20th century. Hint hint.

  10. Top | #20
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Support of Israel as a legitimate state
    Hostility towards Latin American countries who elect socialist leaders
    In favor of the continued existence of private health insurance
    Against the abolition of for-profit prisons
    Opposed to the nationalization of energy production
    Against the cancellation of student debt and medical debt
    Uninterested in high speed, free public transportation across the country
    In favor of NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP, and other such trade agreements
    Against nuclear energy
    Against national rent control
    Against reparations for blacks and indigenous people
    Acceptance of corporate money for campaigns
    That's a fine list.

    Some of them are wrong. Some of the suggestions are just plain stupid.

    I suggest this link for all to view, Quite comprehensive.

    https://www.politico.com/2020-electi...on-the-issues/
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

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