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Thread: Will the military follow Trump or the law and constitution when Trump gives an illegal order?

  1. Top | #21
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    It would seem very unlikely for the military to arrest judges. The FBI would be a more likely option to go.
    This. The guys directly and daily protecting the Pres will have had training in putting a civilian under military apprehension, but most of the military, if they aren't MPs or SP are gonna ask 'Aren't there, like, cops for this? What form do we use? Did the Chief/Sarge say we could do that?'

    Shortly after Trump took office, someone asked the guy who implements the CIC orders for nuclear war if he would start throwing nukes at Trump's say-so.

    He calmlybexplained that part of his job was to prevent war crimes. He would talk to the Pres, try to see what his goal was, and offer whatever legal options were available.
    The Trumpettes commenting on the article used words like treason, cowardice, insubordination, and Leftist, of course.

    So if Trump goes thru channels, for anything, career officers will be trying to navigate the legalities. And if he tries to issue launch codes by tweet, he can maybe do and end run around the officers, but the system really isn't set up for that. The Air Force hasn't replaced their 8-inch floppies, yet.

  2. Top | #22
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    The alternative would be for the code guy to present ASCII porn as ‘the codes’. It’d take a while for him to read through it, due to length and because he is blind as a bat.

  3. Top | #23
    Veteran Member KeepTalking's Avatar
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    Forget about Trump ordering the military to arrest any civilian, what if Trump orders the military to arrest Lt. Col. Vindman?

    That is a very real possibility.

  4. Top | #24
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    Forget about Trump ordering the military to arrest any civilian, what if Trump orders the military to arrest Lt. Col. Vindman?

    That is a very real possibility.
    Why do you say that is a possibility? Trumpo is his commander in chief but he is not his master. Vindman is sworn to protect the constitution, as such he must follow direct orders from the office of president. But that doesn't mean he has to suck his superior's balls or obey unlawful orders.

  5. Top | #25
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    Another self-induced feargasm.

  6. Top | #26
    Veteran Member KeepTalking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    Forget about Trump ordering the military to arrest any civilian, what if Trump orders the military to arrest Lt. Col. Vindman?

    That is a very real possibility.
    Why do you say that is a possibility?
    Because Lt. Col. Vindman testified against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Trumpo is his commander in chief but he is not his master. Vindman is sworn to protect the constitution, as such he must follow direct orders from the office of president. But that doesn't mean he has to suck his superior's balls or obey unlawful orders.
    Well, I don't think he is going to ask Vindman to arrest himself, so I am not sure what the above objection is regarding.

  7. Top | #27
    Content Thief Elixir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post

    You misunderstand. It would be Trump issuing the illegal order and the officers who will have to decide to follow the illegal order, refuse or resign. And then what will the troops do? If Trump orders the a military to arrest congress, which I believe he is insane enough to do, what would the military do?

    Would there be a civil war within the military? And what of the rest of the country?

    Will rabid Trump culters in the military revolt against their officers?
    I don't think he's remotely insane enough ...
    Considering the insane things he has already done, any sentence starting with "I don't think he's remotely insane enough..." is utter foolishness.
    Is he remotely insane enough to publicly call for foreign interference in US elections? Is he remotely insane enough to invite Russian intelligence officers into the oval office and there reveal codeword-level secrets to a US enemy? Etc. etc.

    Yes, he IS that insane, and those who claim otherwise are not remotely sane enough to be taken seriously.

  8. Top | #28
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    So, the Army promotion list for Full Colonels came out.

    Traditionally, Pentagon sends it to the White House, who traditionally makes no comment, just releases it to the media.

    This year, Lt. Colonal Vindman is on the list.

    This year, the list was not submitted to the White House for review.

    Think the military's had it about up to here.

  9. Top | #29
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    So, the Army promotion list for Full Colonels came out.

    Traditionally, Pentagon sends it to the White House, who traditionally makes no comment, just releases it to the media.

    This year, Lt. Colonal Vindman is on the list.

    This year, the list was not submitted to the White House for review.

    Think the military's had it about up to here.

    That’s quite uplifting, that is.

  10. Top | #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post

    You misunderstand. It would be Trump issuing the illegal order and the officers who will have to decide to follow the illegal order, refuse or resign. And then what will the troops do? If Trump orders the a military to arrest congress, which I believe he is insane enough to do, what would the military do?

    Would there be a civil war within the military? And what of the rest of the country?

    Will rabid Trump culters in the military revolt against their officers?
    I don't think he's remotely insane enough to do that, so to me this is an unrealistic counterfactual. They would not "arrest congress", and they would not want to get into a firefight with the USCP, but this is so far out that there is no need to actually worry.
    You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen? Have you read the link?
    I read the link, and it makes clear that many senior officers don’t trust Trump, and are very concerned about him giving illegal orders potentially. They would say no to any illegal orders. You don’t get to high rank without understanding the basic concept of the military. The oath of office clearly says that you obey only legal orders. Not illegal ones. The military has numerous lawyers on staff for precisely this reason, to ensure that the orders given are legal. The Army Chief of Staff almost crossed the line a few weeks ago, and issued an extraordinary apology for having done so. I cannot envision any military obeying Trump’s orders to arrest members of Congress. I also don’t think they’d resign and then Trump would be effectively defanged. In fact, I think that likely happened the other day. I think they told him they couldn’t and wouldn’t participate in riot control and forced him to back down. Esper was adamant that troops not be used and they all met behind closed doors. We may never know what really happened, but it’s pretty clear that at least Esper stood up and said no.

    SLD

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