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Thread: Will the military follow Trump or the law and constitution when Trump gives an illegal order?

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    Veteran Member crazyfingers's Avatar
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    Will the military follow Trump or the law and constitution when Trump gives an illegal order?

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/polit...ing/index.html

    Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal. Of course it goes back further than that.

    Will the military split against itself. One side on the law and constitution and the other with Trump?

    Trumps regards the US military is his, not the country's.

    With one illegal order trump could bring about civil war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/polit...ing/index.html

    Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal. Of course it goes back further than that.

    Will the military split against itself. One side on the law and constitution and the other with Trump?

    Trumps regards the US military is his, not the country's.

    With one illegal order trump could bring about civil war.
    I don't think there is a significant chance of any civil war. Military personnel usually follow their orders, and it would be extremely unlikely for them to refuse on account on their being illegal - it would have to be too obvious. Some might retire if they are senior officers and think a policy is not legal, I suppose.

    At any rate, the problem is over in about a year if Trump loses, or about five years otherwise.

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    Veteran Member crazyfingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/polit...ing/index.html

    Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal. Of course it goes back further than that.

    Will the military split against itself. One side on the law and constitution and the other with Trump?

    Trumps regards the US military is his, not the country's.

    With one illegal order trump could bring about civil war.
    I don't think there is a significant chance of any civil war. Military personnel usually follow their orders, and it would be extremely unlikely for them to refuse on account on their being illegal - it would have to be too obvious. Some might retire if they are senior officers and think a policy is not legal, I suppose.

    At any rate, the problem is over in about a year if Trump loses, or about five years otherwise.
    You misunderstand. It would be Trump issuing the illegal order and the officers who will have to decide to follow the illegal order, refuse or resign. And then what will the troops do? If Trump orders the a military to arrest congress, which I believe he is insane enough to do, what would the military do?

    Would there be a civil war within the military? And what of the rest of the country?

    Will rabid Trump culters in the military revolt against their officers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/polit...ing/index.html

    Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal. Of course it goes back further than that.

    Will the military split against itself. One side on the law and constitution and the other with Trump?

    Trumps regards the US military is his, not the country's.

    With one illegal order trump could bring about civil war.
    I don't think there is a significant chance of any civil war. Military personnel usually follow their orders, and it would be extremely unlikely for them to refuse on account on their being illegal - it would have to be too obvious. Some might retire if they are senior officers and think a policy is not legal, I suppose.

    At any rate, the problem is over in about a year if Trump loses, or about five years otherwise.
    You misunderstand. It would be Trump issuing the illegal order and the officers who will have to decide to follow the illegal order, refuse or resign. And then what will the troops do? If Trump orders the a military to arrest congress, which I believe he is insane enough to do, what would the military do?

    Would there be a civil war within the military? And what of the rest of the country?

    Will rabid Trump culters in the military revolt against their officers?
    I don't think he's remotely insane enough to do that, so to me this is an unrealistic counterfactual. They would not "arrest congress", and they would not want to get into a firefight with the USCP, but this is so far out that there is no need to actually worry.

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    Veteran Member crazyfingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post

    You misunderstand. It would be Trump issuing the illegal order and the officers who will have to decide to follow the illegal order, refuse or resign. And then what will the troops do? If Trump orders the a military to arrest congress, which I believe he is insane enough to do, what would the military do?

    Would there be a civil war within the military? And what of the rest of the country?

    Will rabid Trump culters in the military revolt against their officers?
    I don't think he's remotely insane enough to do that, so to me this is an unrealistic counterfactual. They would not "arrest congress", and they would not want to get into a firefight with the USCP, but this is so far out that there is no need to actually worry.
    You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen? Have you read the link?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post

    You misunderstand. It would be Trump issuing the illegal order and the officers who will have to decide to follow the illegal order, refuse or resign. And then what will the troops do? If Trump orders the a military to arrest congress, which I believe he is insane enough to do, what would the military do?

    Would there be a civil war within the military? And what of the rest of the country?

    Will rabid Trump culters in the military revolt against their officers?
    I don't think he's remotely insane enough to do that, so to me this is an unrealistic counterfactual. They would not "arrest congress", and they would not want to get into a firefight with the USCP, but this is so far out that there is no need to actually worry.
    You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen?
    It depends on what the order is, and whom he gives the order to. As long as the illegality of the order is not clear to the officer, it would be followed. Else, I do not know. But again, this does not seem to be that big a risk. The pardons pander to part of his base (though I think they would backfire if Democrats manage to pick a mediocre candidate at least, which they may well not), but that's about it. If you're not concerned about that case, good. But what sort of order do you have in mind?

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    Veteran Member crazyfingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post

    You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen?
    It depends on what the order is, and whom he gives the order to. As long as the illegality of the order is not clear to the officer, it would be followed. Else, I do not know. But again, this does not seem to be that big a risk. The pardons pander to part of his base (though I think they would backfire if Democrats manage to pick a mediocre candidate at least, which they may well not), but that's about it. If you're not concerned about that case, good. But what sort of order do you have in mind?
    Suppose Trump ordered the military to arrest one federal court district judge who ruled against him. I believe that Trump is insane enough to do that. What would the military do? How would Trump respond to an officer who refused to follow Trump's illegal order. How would it end?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post

    You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen?
    It depends on what the order is, and whom he gives the order to. As long as the illegality of the order is not clear to the officer, it would be followed. Else, I do not know. But again, this does not seem to be that big a risk. The pardons pander to part of his base (though I think they would backfire if Democrats manage to pick a mediocre candidate at least, which they may well not), but that's about it. If you're not concerned about that case, good. But what sort of order do you have in mind?
    Suppose Trump ordered the military to arrest one federal court district judge who ruled against him. I believe that Trump is insane enough to do that. What would the military do? How would Trump respond to an officer who refused to follow Trump's illegal order. How would it end?
    I don't think Trump is nearly crazy enough to do that. But in any case, the military is not in the business of arresting people, so the officers who receive the order would probably say it is not their function to arrest people.

    But still, I think you - alongside millions more on your side - are getting worried by hypothetical scenarios so improbable that they're not worth bothering. If a federal judge rules against him, he will appeal, not arrest the judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post
    Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal.
    He took a photo next to a dead scumbag. Is that really worthy of the label "war criminal", esp. next to stuff ISIS has been doing on the regular?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post
    Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal.
    He took a photo next to a dead scumbag. Is that really worthy of the label "war criminal", esp. next to stuff ISIS has been doing on the regular?
    If that's all he did, his entire team wouldn't be so adamant to never work with him ever again. And this is the first time I've ever heard of Navy SEALS blowing the whistle on one of their own. I honestly can't think of an instance where a single SEAL has been a whistleblower, let alone an entire group unanimously saying this guy is a war criminal. To use a comparison you might understand, this guy is as innocent of murder as OJ Simpson.

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