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Thread: Dogs

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    This piece (http://www.startribune.com/dogs-huma...est/565557152/] suggests
    B which leads to

    .

    Anyway I thought it was an interesting read that sheds some possible light onto our relationship with dogs. Who, by the way, not only drool but rule.
    I agree that the more amicable animals were favored by humans which led to domestication, as southernhybrid stated as well, but it seems that as we have taken ourselves out of nature, we have taken dogs out too. Dogs still have a lot of pack instincts: hunting, running, very social - Perfect for paleolithic nomadic tribal life where they worked, lived and slept with or near their people.

    Some dogs live close to their people without being penned up all day waiting for someone to return. I fear a lot don't. Others have been bred so drastically unlike their ancestors, mostly to adapt to more modern lifestyles (I think) that they have serious health issues. I've known of dogs who spend a big part of the day in a cage waiting for someone to come home.
    We have taken ourselves out of nature, because on the whole, nature sucks.

    Sure, there are problems associated with our artificial environment; But on average, it's FAR superior to the natural environment we left behind.

    And that's true for dogs as much as it is for us. Neither my dogs nor myself need to go a day or two without food. We don't get wet when it rains, or suffer the heat in midsummer or the cold of wintertime. We are not hunted by predators, and we can live in one spot for years without finding ourselves up to the eyeballs in our own faeces.

    Nature isn't synonymous with goodness; And our artificial environment is whatever we make it to be. Suffering and cruelty occur in both environments, but suffering even without cruelty is the hallmark of nature.
    Agree - but the environment we built is for us. I can only imagine what a Dog Society would look like.

  2. Top | #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    But, y'all probably know that dogs weren't created by humans interfering with wolves. Dogs evolved to become part of the human pack. They are related to wolves like we are related to apes, you could say. [...]

    I've read at least 5 or 6 books written by scientists who have studied the evolution of dogs. It's very interesting to learn how dogs and humans became part of a pack. We fed the more friendly wolves and they took advantage of this, to make it very simple.
    I never really got my head around the domestication of wolves until I saw it depicted in Cosmos, with the unfrightened wolves coming up to the humans at the campfire. Before then I thought humans somehow caught and bred wild wolves with a plan to tame them.

  3. Top | #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfield View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    But, y'all probably know that dogs weren't created by humans interfering with wolves. Dogs evolved to become part of the human pack. They are related to wolves like we are related to apes, you could say. [...]

    I've read at least 5 or 6 books written by scientists who have studied the evolution of dogs. It's very interesting to learn how dogs and humans became part of a pack. We fed the more friendly wolves and they took advantage of this, to make it very simple.
    I never really got my head around the domestication of wolves until I saw it depicted in Cosmos, with the unfrightened wolves coming up to the humans at the campfire. Before then I thought humans somehow caught and bred wild wolves with a plan to tame them.
    I know. It's fascinating how dogs learned to manipulate us. I have one sitting next to me right now. She pretty much rules the place. I just hate that so many people don't treat their dogs like the family members that they are meant to be. It's heartbreaking to see abandoned or mistreated dogs.

    Dogs have been manipulated and trained to work for us too, but working dogs, if treated well, seem very happy to do their work. Sheep herding dogs bond with the sheep as well as with their humans, or so I've read recently.

  4. Top | #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfield View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    But, y'all probably know that dogs weren't created by humans interfering with wolves. Dogs evolved to become part of the human pack. They are related to wolves like we are related to apes, you could say. [...]

    I've read at least 5 or 6 books written by scientists who have studied the evolution of dogs. It's very interesting to learn how dogs and humans became part of a pack. We fed the more friendly wolves and they took advantage of this, to make it very simple.
    I never really got my head around the domestication of wolves until I saw it depicted in Cosmos, with the unfrightened wolves coming up to the humans at the campfire. Before then I thought humans somehow caught and bred wild wolves with a plan to tame them.
    I know. It's fascinating how dogs learned to manipulate us. I have one sitting next to me right now. She pretty much rules the place. I just hate that so many people don't treat their dogs like the family members that they are meant to be. It's heartbreaking to see abandoned or mistreated dogs.

    Dogs have been manipulated and trained to work for us too, but working dogs, if treated well, seem very happy to do their work. Sheep herding dogs bond with the sheep as well as with their humans, or so I've read recently.
    Many different breeds of dogs were developed very thoughtfully, and with specific purposes in mind. I'll never forget seeing my father's favorite hunting dog, a German shorthaired pointer, on her first day at our home, when she was about 8 weeks old. There was a butterfly on a clover in the lawn and she went on perfect point, by instinct. That characteristic was carefully selected for and reinforced through select breeding for many, many years. She was a good dog but she was a working dog and as much as she enjoyed us kids, she came alive when working for my dad. Many dog breeds are developed with some such purpose and are happiest if they are given some related kind of 'work' to do. We had herding dogs and while we had no livestock for them to herd, we had children and they definitely were happiest when they had kids to look after.

    Too often today, dogs are bred thoughtlessly and for profit rather than for purpose. My own personal views are that if you want to bring a dog into your home, you must recognize it as a (dog's) lifetime commitment and you must select carefully for the purpose you want the dog. Do you need a dog who is good with kids? Good with strangers? Protective? Will bark at strangers? Is independent and more aloof? Is very cuddly? Sheds/low shed? Dander/low dander? Size? And you must recognize that within breeds or within the breeds present in a dog's heritage, there is a lot of variability. You need to be aware of potential congenital issues within the breed you select or present in the mixed breed you select as well as problems that are typical for that breed/breeds and raise the dog to mitigate the occurrence of these health issues.

    I've loved every single one of my dogs and have done my very best for each of them. But they are dogs and not child substitutes. IMO, people who use their dogs as child substitutes are actually abusing the dog they love so much. Dogs are dogs and need to be loved and respected as dogs, not as miniature people.
    Edited to clarify: There is nothing wrong with having dogs and not having kids (although if you are my kid, you're breaking my heart and your father's). I'm not talking about having dogs and not having kids. I'm talking about having dogs and then claiming they are just like kids. They're not. Here's an experiment that will prove it: Housetrain a dog and then compare it to potty training a kid. Definitely not the same thing. Unless you are doing it really, really, really wrong.
    Last edited by Toni; 12-01-2019 at 07:58 PM.

  5. Top | #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    Agree - but the environment we built is for us. I can only imagine what a Dog Society would look like.
    Some further speculation along those lines
    https://www.deviantart.com/jflaxman/...ifts-352077512


    According to the fossil record, the Korudo (literally ‘beautiful people’) are descended from an extinct strain of temperate grassland carnivores; though those who uphold the belief that they are children of the moon do not take kindly to this claim. Further research suggests they formed groups to hunt large prey more effectively and fight off competitors. They were nonetheless often driven from kills and forced to subsist on the remains that other hunters left behind. Fresh marrow provided them with important nutrients, and their opposable thumbs developed from the dew claws used to steady bones they were breaking with their teeth. This habit became redundant when stone tools were used for the same purpose. The process of making more specialised tools and carrying them until they were needed are believed to have further honed ancestral Korudo intelligence, encouraged more complex language and prompted upright locomotion; the end result of this can be seen in the race that dominates the world.

    During their transition from savagery to civilisation, the Korudo drove many species to extinction, and tamed others which they altered further through selective breeding. The first of these were apelike creatures that appeared on the plains as the forests contracted during prolonged climate change. The Korudo found their better sight and perception of colour an asset while hunting, just as the ground apes benefited from their new masters’ better hearing, smell, tools and social organisation. Today the apes’ descendants, the Sai (literally ‘servile’) carry out a range of tasks assigned according to their breed; but most just provide companionship. Their capricious masters have repaid their loyalty through deliberately cultivating interesting deformities; deformities that have grown so severe few Sai could survive in the wild. The smallest, most dependent breeds, which often display such infantile traits as large eyes, short limbs, bulging skulls, and a hyperactive but awkward demeanour, are especially popular among Korudo females who lack the time or inclination to find a mate and reproduce. These creatures’ helplessness and clumsiness accentuate their owners’ intelligence and grace, traits only proper for a race that defines itself as beautiful.

    Biological and Cultural Traits:

    Korudo:

    - Tool use has changed the Korudo as much as their environment. Besides their upright stance they are more gracile than their ancestors, with lighter bones and smaller muscles. They retain their strong olfactory sense but their jaws are considerably weaker. Their teeth have not shrunk at the same rate, so dental complaints are common, especially among the upper classes who consume more sweetened food. Fur, once thickest on the back, is now more heavily concentrated on the head and upper shoulders where it offers more protection from the elements. Light clothing is worn more for modesty than insulation, while jewellery and other adornments are used to denote wealth and status.

    - In a culture where olfactory cues are as important as visual ones, perfumes, scents and dyes are extremely popular. The blue stripes on this female’s arms are infused with fragrances that enhance her air of cold allure. The vials on her belt contain substitutes that might be used or combined to different effect.

    - Korudo do not sweat, but radiate heat through their skin, breath and tongue. As panting is considered vulgar in polite society fans are often carried to aid cooling, while flasks of scented water provide rehydration on hot days.

    - This female’s crescent tiara denotes a member of the New Moon sect, a more radical denomination than the more widespread but less outspoken Full Moon traditionalists. Korudo societies are characterised by charismatic leadership, complex but fluid hierarchies, and ever-shifting networks of allegiance and patronage.

    - Elevated footwear keeps the feet clean and dry and increases the wearer’s stature but reduces mobility, suggesting this individual cares more for appearance than adventure.

    Sai:

    - This Sai belongs to the Golba breed, whose most salient traits include a short broad head (brachycephaly) protruding eyes (exophthalmos) underdeveloped upper jaw (hypoplastic maxilla) enlarged tongue (macroglossia) protruding chin (mandibular prognathism) hunched back (kyphosis, though this specimen also suffers from a mild case of scoliosis) short limbs (achondroplasia) small stature and severely reduced intellect. The asymmetric face is a further sign of inbreeding, and the reduced nasal cavity necessitates mouth breathing. Many Korudo consider the Golba’s resultant panting and drooling less vulgar than childishly endearing.

    - Small silver rings in the ears and hair bespeak the owner’s affluence as do the simple clothing. The tattoo on the left hip denotes genetic lineage and helps identify any Sai that might be lost or stolen. To reduce the chance of either this Golba’s owner keeps him on a leash, though larger, stronger breeds of Sai are more often seen on chains.

    - Purebred Golba suffer high rates of miscarriage, stillbirth, infant mortality, and adult infertility; mothers are also at risk during pregnancy due to their genetic defects, so caesarean section is often required. Fertile adult Golba are rare and valued all the more for it, conferring further status on those able to acquire them.

    - Golba also suffer from a reduced life expectancy; while most Korudo live past sixty, few Golba survive twenty years. This is rarely of much concern to the owners who can afford to replace them after a suitable show of grief. Breeders hope to speed the rate at which Golba sexually mature to increase their fecundity and make prime stock more profitable. Some Korudo ethicists claim no Golba should be bred at all, but their statements earn less than the sale of these creatures and are generally ignored.

  6. Top | #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni
    I've loved every single one of my dogs and have done my very best for each of them. But they are dogs and not child substitutes. IMO, people who use their dogs as child substitutes are actually abusing the dog they love so much. Dogs are dogs and need to be loved and respected as dogs, not as miniature people.
    I'm not so sure I agree with that, depending on what you mean by child substitutes. My dog Zoie certainly seems to think that she's my little girl. She hugs me and cuddles with me all the time. She is still a dog of course, but she acts like she's my child in many ways. When I take her to visit Happy, the poodle next door, the two of them act almost exactly like two small children. They exhibit jealously at times, but they also play and chase each other around the fenced in yard. I don't see anything wrong with comparing pet dogs to children. Dogs help older adults who live along have purpose. Some studies have provided evidence that older adults who have dogs companions are actually healthier and live longer than those who don't.

    I did have a German Shorthair Pointer when I was in my early 20s. She was perfectly content to be a pet. I used to take her for very long walks in national parks in northwestern Virginia, where we lived at the time. Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond my control, I did have to rehome her. I found a woman who lived on a farm to adopt her. I knew she needed lots of space to run and play, and I could no longer provide it. I agree that working dogs usually love their work if they are well treated, but even working dogs can make wonderful pets if their needs are met. Senna, my pointer needed the love of people as well as plenty of exercise.

    Zoie on the other hand, just needs love and companionship, and a place to sit in front of a window so she can protect the house from squirrels and chipmunks. It's just heartbreaking that our dog companions have such short lives, but for me, bringing a new dog into my life helps overcome the loss of the former dog. There are so many dogs that need to be rescued, so I will likely try to rescue abandoned dogs if there are to be more dogs in my future.
    Last edited by southernhybrid; 12-02-2019 at 02:27 PM.

  7. Top | #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    Dogs seem so out of place now, in urban society especially. I see them stuffed into a hatchback bombing down the freeway, or labs locked in a cage in an apartment for hours - or just bred so small that they are a mere fashion accessory.
    I don't understand why some people have dogs as pets. They are a pain in the ass. These people are at work all day and leave the poor animal alone in an apartment etc. Or the asshole neighbor I have who is away from home a lot and leaves their dumb dog outside in the yard to constantly bark and treat their yard like a toilet which stinks, I can smell it.

  8. Top | #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni
    I've loved every single one of my dogs and have done my very best for each of them. But they are dogs and not child substitutes. IMO, people who use their dogs as child substitutes are actually abusing the dog they love so much. Dogs are dogs and need to be loved and respected as dogs, not as miniature people.
    I'm not so sure I agree with that, depending on what you mean by child substitutes. My dog Zoie certainly seems to think that she's my little girl. She hugs me and cuddles with me all the time. She is still a dog of course, but she acts like she's my child in many ways. When I take her to visit Happy, the poodle next door, the two of them act almost exactly like two small children. They exhibit jealously at times, but they also play and chase each other around the fenced in yard. I don't see anything wrong with comparing pet dogs to children. Dogs help older adults who live along have purpose. Some studies have provided evidence that older adults who have dogs companions are actually healthier and live longer than those who don't.

    I did have a German Shorthair Pointer when I was in my early 20s. She was perfectly content to be a pet. I used to take her for very long walks in national parks in northwestern Virginia, where we lived at the time. Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond my control, I did have to rehome her. I found a woman who lived on a farm to adopt her. I knew she needed lots of space to run and play, and I could no longer provide it. I agree that working dogs usually love their work if they are well treated, but even working dogs can make wonderful pets if their needs are met. Senna, my pointer needed the love of people as well as plenty of exercise.

    Zoie on the other hand, just needs love and companionship, and a place to sit in front of a window so she can protect the house from squirrels and chipmunks. It's just heartbreaking that our dog companions have such short lives, but for me, bringing a new dog into my life helps overcome the loss of the former dog. There are so many dogs that need to be rescued, so I will likely try to rescue abandoned dogs if there are to be more dogs in my future.
    I mean: people who dress their dogs up and don't let them walk around and be dogs and actively say that they consider their little snookums to be their child and that they love their pet as much as people love their kids.

    I loved every single one of my dogs. I gave up a great deal of time and money on behalf of my dog's needs. I limited my activities according to what my dogs needed. I got training for my dogs and I reinforced it and supported it. My dogs cuddled with me and were always nearby if they sensed that someone was sick or sad or having a tough time. When my son came home from Afghanistan and moved back into his childhood room with a twin bed, all 3 of the dogs, totaling over 250 lbs climbed upon that twin bed with that full grown man and took care of him and eased him back into civilian life.

    They were allowed to walk on grass and kept off sidewalks when it was too hot or when there was too much salt on them to melt the ice. They played in snow and scooped mouthfuls off of the edges of snow that framed the sidewalks and climbed on top of snowy mounds. And I cleaned clumps of snow from their feet and bought them boots to protect them from ice and salt. They were allowed to lay under trees and greet passersby and play with neighborhood children when my own children were grown. They were allowed to sniff each other's butts and sometimes peoples' butts as well. My husband still makes fun of me for sharing my breakfast with our dogs but I simply did as a matter of course. When our dogs were nearing the end of their lives, I cooked special meals for them and searched out special treats to tempt appetites that were failing. I washed and brushed and cleaned up messes without complaining because I knew their bodies were failing. And when it was time, I let them have the most peaceful passing that I could.

    They were not my children. I loved them as much as any human has ever loved a dog but that pales in comparison with how much I love my kids.

    I'd go into a burning building to rescue my dog or to rescue my child but if I had to choose, I'd choose my child any day. I'd choose a human over my much beloved dog.

    While my kids are quite happy with having pets instead of children--and I don't disagree that it is their choice, their pets, however much I love them and dote on them, are not a substitute for grandchildren.

  9. Top | #19
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    Oh I see Toni. I don't dress my dogs up although my estranged sister and her daughter do. My niece is single and has no children, but she had at last count, 3 little rescue chihuahuas. I'm pretty sure those little dogs are better off being with my niece than they would be in a shelter. My estranged sister has always had quite a few emotional issues when it comes to people. I'm not the only one she has cut out of her life. She did it to my mother for close to 20 years, her son, and many of her friends. I'm the one who helped get her and my mother back together again, but she hasn't spoken to her son in over ten years. So, while I think she goes overboard with her five little rescue chihuahuas, the last time I visited, they all seemed to have very good lives.

    I have no doubt that you loved all of your dogs and treated them well, Toni. I can tell by what you say at this forum, that you are a very good, caring person and I would never imagine you treating a pet or a child with anything but love and concern.

  10. Top | #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    Dogs seem so out of place now, in urban society especially. I see them stuffed into a hatchback bombing down the freeway, or labs locked in a cage in an apartment for hours - or just bred so small that they are a mere fashion accessory.
    I don't understand why some people have dogs as pets. They are a pain in the ass. These people are at work all day and leave the poor animal alone in an apartment etc. Or the asshole neighbor I have who is away from home a lot and leaves their dumb dog outside in the yard to constantly bark and treat their yard like a toilet which stinks, I can smell it.
    Well, then people like you should never have a dog. No problem. And, I agree that people shouldn't leave their dogs outside all day. Mine are never outside alone. The only time my husband and I both worked full time, we had a little Westie. He had full run of the house when we were at work and he seemed to enjoy sleeping in our large walk in closet when we weren't home. Dogs sleep a lot during the day. Even though we are home the majority of the time now, the dogs are usually sleeping unless we take them somewhere. They are happy to take a ride in the car or to stay home and sleep on the sofa. Right now, one is sleeping on the living room sofa and the other one is sleeping right behind me on the back of the sofa in the room where I'm sitting. Dogs are actually better than children. They can be left alone in the house with fresh water and some nice places to sleep and most are perfectly happy.

    The majority of people on my street have dogs, but not all of the dogs are treated as well as I think they should be. Most live inside most the time time, but at least a couple of them are left outside alone too often. My city did pass a law that prohibits dogs from being tied outside alone. I don't know how well it's being enforced, but I haven't seen any of my neighbors ever leave their dogs outside tied to a chain. But, saying dogs shouldn't be pets because some people don't treat them well is as stupid as saying that nobody should have children because some parents are cruel. Some humans are just cruel assholes.

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