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Thread: Will science survive human nature.

  1. Top | #31
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    here is an old saying 'No matter where you go, there YOU are'.

    If we somehow manged to leave the solar system en mass we would still be the same human beings.

  2. Top | #32
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    OK. This is going nowhere. The reason I mentioned Tasmania was to suggest humans don't know what they need to colonize. Look at what the Europeans did to American natives when they came if you need to understand Rumsfeld basics and this isn't even unknown unknowns.

    The right place for your pet rock is next to Dean Drive.

    We won't even send people. More likely, robots. That's what we'll do when we mine meteors. Nothing like the cute science-fiction I read in the late forties and the fifties.
    There has been a fair amount of talk about colonizing Mars. I have suggested that, before there is such an attempt, they should first send a sustainable size population of maybe a hundred people to colonize Antarctica... it should be much easier than Mars since the climate is milder, there is free oxygen available, there is plenty available water, and there is even native food sources. Only if this trial colonization was able to flourish without outside aid for ten or twenty years should the Mars colonization be considered. At least, the attempt would inform us of some of the problems we are currently overlooking.

    The first Biosphere experiment that was tried something like 25 years ago didn't go that well and it was in a temperate climate.

  3. Top | #33
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    I agree with your sentiment. We have no idea what will be needed in a foreign environment. With no available gene donors there with whom to mate knowing what humans can do becomes dramatically more important. Hell. We even have Jamestown as a red flag for our limitations and Jonestown as an example for what we might do in a hostile environment. I can hear NOMAD screaming ever more faintly Kill kill, kill as it was antigraved out into space with a bomb taped on.

  4. Top | #34
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    On a multi generational ship the culture eventually would be nothing like what we call human civilization. Mythologies would emerge. Earth itself would become a myth.

    Read Heinlein's Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.

    I do not see a Mars colony psychologically surviving. We need some freedom of action. No where to go, a drab visual environment, and video. No release for social tensions.

  5. Top | #35
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    I agree with your first paragraph up to where you generalize your thought to it would be nothing like human civilization.

    Freedom is in how one arranges options. So what is human civilization?

    Eskimos demonstrate humans survive in monochromatic harsh environments as humans. They preserve humor, respect, duty, family, social order. Mongols who survive as humans on treeless high elevation plateaus, do likewise. Bedouins survive in rainless desert mountains putting only minor stress on religious mores.

    Psychology as we define it in the latter half of the 20th century and the first quarter of the 21st century is abnormal by human pre-industrial age norms. And those societies were unrecognizable to first farmers and before that first farmers were foreign to hunter gatherers .... und so weiter.

    My thoughts on challenges to future immigrants to planet Ohfuck are there will be no life as we know it, maybe no life whatever. That would mean tools for adapting life to environment that set up trends for future humans there is paramount. We don't have such science right now. Much of what we need to live are dependent on having access to living stuff outside us even for digestion. I'm pretty sure we have no idea what we need in a new place to make us viable without being on earth.

    I'm pretty sure blue sky and tinker capabilities will be of little use. We have no idea what blue sky means there and we have no means to tinker with what is there to produce something.
    Last edited by fromderinside; 12-13-2019 at 11:59 PM.

  6. Top | #36
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    Eskimos are not confined. They are based on families and small clans in a simple environment. They have a seaonal chnaging environment.No comparison.

    Humans may adapt on Mars, but their culture will be unlike anything on Earth. On Earth if you do not like the est coast you can go west. Pro sports and backyard sports are pressure release valves. On Mars survival would depend on a strict regimentation. Water, food, and energy conscription along with social rules.

    Large human populations allow for the 'starving artist' and eccentrics to survive. Anti social speech and music.

    NASA has studied the wintering crew at Macmurdo base in the Antiparticle. They are isolated for the winter. No planes can land.

    The Mars Society set up small habitats in the arctic and rode around on ATVs in space suits.

    The problem is in all those kinds of Earth scenarios including the ISS you know it is only short term. There has been one case of a meltdown on the ISS.

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    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Space craft are easily fit for environment changes. In several concept versions for interstellar craft there are living podes separated by some distance with some rotating and others fixed and early concepts. A 1950s space station, envisioned by Disney shown on Disneyland with the help of Wernher Von Braun of was even equipped with a rotating enclosed cylinder for moving about and exercise. You focus on easily resolved problems already conceived and and implemented in models at least.

  8. Top | #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post

    And of course it only needs a fairly small probability of being implemented. If there's a 1% chance we will ever bother to do it, then you only need 69 similar civilisations in the entire galaxy for it to be more likely than not that one will eventually come and visit us.
    I suspect at least most species would avoid colonizing potentially life-bearing systems. We would still detect them around nearby stars, though.

    How would we detect them? Do we have radio telescopes sensitive enough to pick up communications from an intelligent radio source say even 20 light years away? To transmit recognizable signals across such distances would involve large amounts of energy, similar in scale to to the energy radiated by small stars, I would imagine. I am not well read on the subject, but based on what I know about the propagation of waves and losses through geometric spread and damping, I can't imagine this would be a straightforward task. Now if the alien species had the ability to cover up entire stars, or cause a significant change in their brightness, and they did this to enough stars, that would probably get noticed by astronomers eventually.

  9. Top | #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post

    And of course it only needs a fairly small probability of being implemented. If there's a 1% chance we will ever bother to do it, then you only need 69 similar civilisations in the entire galaxy for it to be more likely than not that one will eventually come and visit us.
    I suspect at least most species would avoid colonizing potentially life-bearing systems. We would still detect them around nearby stars, though.

    How would we detect them? Do we have radio telescopes sensitive enough to pick up communications from an intelligent radio source say even 20 light years away? To transmit recognizable signals across such distances would involve large amounts of energy, similar in scale to to the energy radiated by small stars, I would imagine. I am not well read on the subject, but based on what I know about the propagation of waves and losses through geometric spread and damping, I can't imagine this would be a straightforward task. Now if the alien species had the ability to cover up entire stars, or cause a significant change in their brightness, and they did this to enough stars, that would probably get noticed by astronomers eventually.
    Our radio telescopes can pick out our TV broadcasts farther away than that.

    Not to mention all those military radars around. Not much signal but power that can be detected far away.

  10. Top | #40
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post

    And of course it only needs a fairly small probability of being implemented. If there's a 1% chance we will ever bother to do it, then you only need 69 similar civilisations in the entire galaxy for it to be more likely than not that one will eventually come and visit us.
    I suspect at least most species would avoid colonizing potentially life-bearing systems.
    That seems to me to be a baseless assumption. While it is true that many humans don't want to 'contaminate' other planets, I see no reason to assume other species would have the same concern. After all, even many humans don't have that concern. Plus, there are plans to colonize Mars because it is potentially life-bearing.
    We would still detect them around nearby stars, though.
    We could detect them if they were a Type II or Type III civilization. Detecting a civilization like ours or even a bit more advanced would be almost impossible unless they put a lot of effort into advertising their presence. There could possibly be enough leakage for us to detect a Type I with little intentional effort on their part. Detecting a Type II would be easier or would require a lot of detailed astronomical observation unless they were intentionally attempting to let their presence be known. We would likely already be aware of a Type III civilization if there were one.

    The SETI program is searching for a civilization that is intentionally attempting to advertise themselves. They are looking for a powerful, highly directional signal aimed at our solar system.
    Last edited by skepticalbip; 12-19-2019 at 10:32 PM.

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