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Thread: Intelligence, race and related issues.

  1. Top | #21
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
    It’s not incorrect that as you age you become your parents.
    But that's not the discussion.

    Controlled experiments are impossible with human lives because it isn't ethical. But humans are organisms like other organisms, animals with needs like other animals with needs. I can guarantee you that I will see differences in cloned plants if I raise those genetically identical plants under different conditions. Humans are more complex but the analogy is sound.

  2. Top | #22
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
    It’s not incorrect that as you age you become your parents.
    But that's not the discussion.

    Controlled experiments are impossible with human lives because it isn't ethical. But humans are organisms like other organisms, animals with needs like other animals with needs. I can guarantee you that I will see differences in cloned plants if I raise those genetically identical plants under different conditions. Humans are more complex but the analogy is sound.
    There's a lot of toddlers that have been ripped from their Latin American families and adopted out to US citizens. Maybe we can see how they turn out?
    ITMFA

    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

    Neil Peart R.I.P.

  3. Top | #23
    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    One of the best ways to help young children has been the Head Start program. Nurture is important, more so than genetic intelligence. Educators over decades have agreed, Head Start has payed dividends far above it;s monetary cost. Therefore we have to fight the GOP and conservatives tooth and nail to get funding for Head Start. I remember way back with G.H.W. Bush, under funding became a political issue. Bush declared finally that Head Start would be fully funded. He lied. That never happened.

    And now,
    https://chronicleofsocialchange.org/...ces-2020/34274

    ...
    Head Start haircut: A lot of youth spending lines took hits during the budget battles and sequestration that preceded Trump. But one that was protected, and even saw increases supported by Republican appropriators, was Head Start, the national program that provides early childhood care to many low-income families. Recent research out of the Michigan State School of Social Work suggests that Head Start participation may help prevent removals to foster care among families known to the child welfare system.
    Trump would reverse the upward trend in Head Start funding, cutting it by $359 million.
    ...

    My brother married a school teacher, and I met some of her teacher colleagues at parties, all happy to talk about the horrors of teaching at inner city schools in Houston, which many did. Culturally, many young children end up in elementary school utterly unprepared for school. Those without Head Start are at risk of becoming discouraged, falling behind and giving up and later on, dropping out of school.
    HISD, one of the largest public school districts had an unofficial policy of pushing failing students out of school.

    Black and Hispanic students have been getting the short end of the stick for many years, decades even. The GOP has never cared. Head Start and other similar programs meant to prepare young children for success in school have been systematically attacked by Republican politicians for years and it is still policy.

    Intelligence of races is not the problem.
    Cheerful Charlie

  4. Top | #24
    Contributor ruby sparks's Avatar
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    That’s getting a bit closer to my purpose in starting the thread, and why I chose the politics forum and not the science forum.

    To say that there is likely a genetic component to disparities in intelligence is a million miles away from saying (and some say it, even some members of this forum if memory serves) that that is just something that nothing, or very little, can be done to change, or, that it in some way justifies the existence of inequalities.

    In other words, I think the fact (assuming it is a fact) is politically misused.

    But that does not mean we should deny that it is a factor. The response to a misuse of the facts is not to deny the facts themselves, only the misuse of them.

    Does that make sense?

  5. Top | #25
    Elder Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    We are different races. Not different species. And if there are significant differences in intelligence between races,
    How about differences within the same "race"? You seem to be implying that there should not be "significant" differences there for sure. I mean it's not even different races.

  6. Top | #26
    Elder Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    "Circumstances"="natural selection" affect genetics.
    But not nearly enough to cause the differences we observe.
    How do you know that? Studies seem to suggest that differences are mostly genetic

  7. Top | #27
    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    That’s getting a bit closer to my purpose in starting the thread, and why I chose the politics forum and not the science forum.

    To say that there is likely a genetic component to disparities in intelligence is a million miles away from saying (and some say it, even some members of this forum if memory serves) that that is just something that nothing, or very little, can be done to change, or, that it in some way justifies the existence of inequalities.

    In other words, I think the fact (assuming it is a fact) is politically misused.

    But that does not mean we should deny that it is a factor. The response to a misuse of the facts is not to deny the facts themselves, only the misuse of them.

    Does that make sense?
    My brother worked for HISD when No Child Left Behind was born here. It is an ugly tale. Really, a few conversations with teachers who have taught at inner city schools, is an eye opener.

    It has long been a problem with these schools with children utterly unprepared to go to school. Everything has to stop in the class room to deal with these children. Time is not budgeted for this by the powers that be. About 30 years ago in Texas, there was a bill "Values Clarification" to set aside time and resources to make sure all children are taught to be social in an elementary school setting. Many poor children come to school with absolutely no idea of how to behave in a setting with teachers or other children.

    The far right here in Texas went berserk. Conservative conspiracy theories flew thick and fast and eventually, the bills were defeated. I remember being utterly gobsmacked by the truly insane BS that was used to kill this bill. The same forces went on a crusade against teaching evolution in Texas schools. We are still fighting all of this. After all, if you could make children into good citizens apart from conservative fundamentalist Christianity, who would need Christianity?
    Cheerful Charlie

  8. Top | #28
    Contributor Trausti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    One of the best ways to help young children has been the Head Start program. Nurture is important, more so than genetic intelligence. Educators over decades have agreed, Head Start has payed dividends far above it;s monetary cost. Therefore we have to fight the GOP and conservatives tooth and nail to get funding for Head Start. I remember way back with G.H.W. Bush, under funding became a political issue. Bush declared finally that Head Start would be fully funded. He lied. That never happened.

    And now,
    https://chronicleofsocialchange.org/...ces-2020/34274

    ...
    Head Start haircut: A lot of youth spending lines took hits during the budget battles and sequestration that preceded Trump. But one that was protected, and even saw increases supported by Republican appropriators, was Head Start, the national program that provides early childhood care to many low-income families. Recent research out of the Michigan State School of Social Work suggests that Head Start participation may help prevent removals to foster care among families known to the child welfare system.
    Trump would reverse the upward trend in Head Start funding, cutting it by $359 million.
    ...

    My brother married a school teacher, and I met some of her teacher colleagues at parties, all happy to talk about the horrors of teaching at inner city schools in Houston, which many did. Culturally, many young children end up in elementary school utterly unprepared for school. Those without Head Start are at risk of becoming discouraged, falling behind and giving up and later on, dropping out of school.
    HISD, one of the largest public school districts had an unofficial policy of pushing failing students out of school.

    Black and Hispanic students have been getting the short end of the stick for many years, decades even. The GOP has never cared. Head Start and other similar programs meant to prepare young children for success in school have been systematically attacked by Republican politicians for years and it is still policy.

    Intelligence of races is not the problem.
    Well . . .

    Effects of the Tennessee Prekindergarten Program on children’s achievement and behavior through third grade

    This report presents results of a randomized trial of a state prekindergarten program. Low-income children (N = 2990) applying to oversubscribed programs were randomly assigned to receive offers of admission or remain on a waiting list. Data from pre-k through 3rd grade were obtained from state education records; additional data were collected for a subset of children with parental consent (N = 1076). At the end of pre-k, pre-k participants in the consented subsample performed better than control children on a battery of achievement tests, with non-native English speakers and children scoring lowest at baseline showing the greatest gains. During the kindergarten year and thereafter, the control children caught up with the pre-k participants on those tests and generally surpassed them. Similar results appeared on the 3rd grade state achievement tests for the full randomized sample – pre-k participants did not perform as well as the control children. Teacher ratings of classroom behavior did not favor either group overall, though some negative treatment effects were seen in 1st and 2nd grade. There were differential positive pre-k effects for male and Black children on a few ratings and on attendance. Pre-k participants had lower retention rates in kindergarten that did not persist, and higher rates of school rule violations in later grades. Many pre-k participants received special education designations that remained through later years, creating higher rates than for control children. Issues raised by these findings and implications for pre-k policy are discussed.
    Spending money on Head Start doesn't make a difference. But it feels good. And that's what really matters.

  9. Top | #29
    Contributor Trausti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
    It’s not incorrect that as you age you become your parents.
    But that's not the discussion.

    Controlled experiments are impossible with human lives because it isn't ethical. But humans are organisms like other organisms, animals with needs like other animals with needs. I can guarantee you that I will see differences in cloned plants if I raise those genetically identical plants under different conditions. Humans are more complex but the analogy is sound.
    Well, sure. If you apply selective pressure to any life you can change it. Humans have been selectively breeding animals and crops for a very long time. But you can't escape heredity. Heredity is central to all of this. Otherwise, evolution is wrong.

  10. Top | #30
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
    It’s not incorrect that as you age you become your parents.
    But that's not the discussion.

    Controlled experiments are impossible with human lives because it isn't ethical. But humans are organisms like other organisms, animals with needs like other animals with needs. I can guarantee you that I will see differences in cloned plants if I raise those genetically identical plants under different conditions. Humans are more complex but the analogy is sound.
    Well, sure. If you apply selective pressure to any life you can change it. Humans have been selectively breeding animals and crops for a very long time. But you can't escape heredity. Heredity is central to all of this. Otherwise, evolution is wrong.
    Heredity is certainly the potential, but it is the environment that shapes heredity. A set of genes with great potential will not thrive if the environment does not allow it, whereas another set of "inferior" genes will thrive under better conditions and be selected to survive.

    Have you read Diamond's work on the subject? It's astonishing the environmental advantages some societies had over others in terms of edible, nourishing plants, animals that could be harnessed for power, natural resources, etc. Those advantages in turn drove inequality and natural selection. I highly recommend the books to anyone interested in how "race" came to be.

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