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Thread: Violence during consensual sex has become normalised

  1. Top | #21
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    ....more than a third of UK women under the age of 40 have experienced unwanted slapping, choking, gagging or spitting
    It clearly says unwanted.
    Again, those sexual inclinations are not unwanted by the people who had them. So, my question is: would you favor forced treatment?
    I think people should be allowed - not forced - to seek clinical therapy for their unwanted sexual inclinations. Porn addiction, hyper-sexually, low libido, internalised homophobia, pedophilia, harmful fetishes, zoophilia, sodomy...

    I'm not saying you shouldn't.
    I don't.
    You can't force people to stop thinking immoral thoughts.

    Maybe there is a point (or there would be, if the treatment could work) to forcibly treat people who engage in sexual crimes by doing violence against those who do not want it. But in that case, it's not the sexual inclinations to have violent consensual sex, but rather, the inclinations to have violent sex with people who have not consented to it that might be treated (if you had a way of treating them that is not disproportionate to the level of the crime, which depends on the level of the crime of course).
    2019.
    Gender equality, equal pay, wimmins liberation, the pill, abortion on demand, SSM, no fault divorce. And yet we somehow find ourselves in an era where 'inappropriate' #metoo behaviour - sexual gluttony - is apparently more overt and prevalent than 1920. (Back when men opened doors for women and stood when a lady entered the room. And women and children made it onto the Titanic lifeboats first.)

  2. Top | #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC
    I think people should be allowed - not forced - to seek clinical therapy for their unwanted sexual inclinations. Porn addiction, hyper-sexually, low libido, internalised homophobia, pedophilia, harmful fetishes, zoophilia, sodomy...
    Sure, I agree. But that is not applicable to the thread. In fact, you said before

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    ....more than a third of UK women under the age of 40 have experienced unwanted slapping, choking, gagging or spitting
    It clearly says unwanted.
    But that is a misunderstanding of the conversation. The sexual acts in question were unwanted by women who had no inclination towards them. On the other hand, the people who had the inclination to engage in those sexual acts (in all of the examples in this thread as far as I can tell) did not have a want not to have those sexual inclinations.

    In other words, the question of whether people should be allowed to seek clinical therapy for their unwanted sexual inclinations is not relevant to the matters that were being discussed in the thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC
    You can't force people to stop thinking immoral thoughts.
    You can force people into procedures or "treatments" that will reduce their inclination to engage in sexual activity. An extreme example is castration, a much less extreme is "chemical castration". In short: it is possible to give people drugs that will make them (much) less inclined to have sex, which would have an impact on their inclination to commit violent sexual crimes.
    The matter is debatable for some criminals, but it would be excessive in most cases.

  3. Top | #23
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
    A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.

  4. Top | #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
    A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.
    Sure, but it's still a misunderstanding of the conversation. Just take a look at the exchange. You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Pity the woke brigade has such a problem with the idea of conversion therapy, otherwise we could treat people for these kinds of abnormal unwanted sexual inclinations.
    Now, when you said "we could treat people for these kinds of abnormal unwanted sexual inclinations", you were, indeed, assuming that the sexual inclinations were unwanted. Now, unwanted by whom? By the people who had them?

    When you were told that those people did not have a want not to have those inclinations - i.e., that they were not unwanted - you replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    ....more than a third of UK women under the age of 40 have experienced unwanted slapping, choking, gagging or spitting
    It clearly says unwanted.
    That clearly misunderstands the exchange. Your reply only speaks about the wants of the women who do not have those inclinations, but the exchange was about whether the people that do have these inclinations and who seek others who want this sort of sex, not about those unwillingly on the end of the violent sexual inclinations of others.

    No matter, now you make a relevant point, when you say

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
    A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.
    That is true. However, if you take a look at the context of this thread, you will reckon (or should reckon) that the people we are talking about do not have that wish, nor do they consider their desires some sort of illness, malfunctioning, or whatever (and if they did, it does not follow they would want to be cured).

    Evidence of that is the fact that they are not only engaging in that sort of sex, but they're actively seeking others who like that sort of sex too. If they wanted not to have that desire and considered it a sort of illness, they could go to forums of people who say it is and offer support, from Christian groups to all sorts of groups for "sex addicts" or whatever, or just do nothing, or ask a therapist, or at least express their discomfort with having those wishes. Observations indicates nothing of the sort, though.

  5. Top | #25
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    I said...
    A person can simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.

    If you disagree with that, you should just say so. Less word count.

    I think the case can be likewise made that there are many people who wish they COULD engage in certain types of behaviour they want to, but can't. And so they seek clinical therapy to help them do so. Bruce/Caitlin Jenner comes to mind. Trauma counselling for rape victims who suddenly find themselves with an aversion to heterosexual behaviour would be another example. They simultaneously dislike and yet want to like the same act.

    I don't know why this phenomenon is hard for you to get your head around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC
    A person can simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.
    I already said clearly that I agree. I said it twice in the very post I'm replying to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC
    If you disagree with that, you should just say so. Less word count.
    But I said that I agree, twice in the very post you are replying to. I even made a case as to why this is not a significant factor in this context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC
    I don't know why this phenomenon is hard for you to get your head around.
    I have no such difficulty of course. I said twice that it's true (it's obvious really). But instead of addressing my points, you just make stuff up about me. Granted, you do not do that deliberately. But you should read more carefully, or refrain from replying.

  7. Top | #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
    A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.
    But they're not going to want to unless that desire is causing them harm in some fashion. Conversion therapy came about because of how society and especially religion treated gays. The real problem is that at best it creates a fucked-up straight, and usually it doesn't even do that.

  8. Top | #28
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Have you never spanked a woman?
    I'll ask the Mods (again) if interrogating my private life is On or Off topic.
    In the meantime MYOFB

  9. Top | #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by J842P View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Starr View Post

    As someone who does a lot of online dating, it feels like way more than 50%. I am not a kinky guy, and I have no desire for pain during sex, but the number of women who say they do on the compatibility questions is just crazy shocking. It makes it kind of intimidating: I don't want crazy S&M sex, but almost everyone I find otherwise interesting seems to be really into that kind of thing.
    Yup. I have the same experience, and I'm pretty much the poster child for a millennial that has consumed way too much pornography from an early age. I've never had any desire to choke or hit someone during sex, but the amount of girls/women who are really into that was shocking.

    Of course, it may seem like a lot because of the type of woman who is willing to fuck me tends to be the type who is into that.
    I am not doubting your experience but I will offer up: A lot of women are insecure, especially about online dating. An insecure person will often profess to like something in order to be accepted or liked. Women are persons. They may not be into rough stuff but may think that's what guys insist upon these days, kind of like removing all pubic hair. A disturbing number of teenage boys don't realize that girls/women are supposed to like sex--and a disturbing number of girls don't either or think there's something wrong with them if they don't like (whatever) or aren't ready for penetration before they're even kissed or touched. And a disturbing number of teenagers believe that a girl owes sex to a guy if he buys her dinner or takes her to the movies or asks her.

    I know you're not teenagers but consider what a woman who grew up with that kind of expectation might feel about guys who are doing online dating ?
    The 50%+ number is consistent with studies done with large samples of online daters (reporting their preferences anonymously, not just as part of their profile) and with academic research using more general samples (not just online daters).

    It isn't surprising. The brain doesn't have a "sexual arousal" network. It has a general arousal network, and arousal gets interpreted by the context. That's why even an intense fear experience can enhance sexual arousal in the right context.
    Obviously, real pain would likely pull most women out of sexual arousal, but most "rough" sex acts don't rise to that level.

    In addition, this University study of college students found that women reported reaching orgasm more quickly with rough sex, women who liked rough sex had sex more often, and there was no correlation between consensual rough sex and unwanted abuse in the relationship.

    Note that in the OP study, not only did 31% of women say the engaged in this rough sex and it was "never unwanted", but even the 37% of women who had experience unwanted rough acts were not women who didn't ever enjoy rough sex. They were merely women who said that "at least some" (but not all) of the rough acts they experienced were unwanted. Then the final third of the sample were women who'd never experienced it, but may or may not have wanted to. So, that means it is likely of around 50% of women in that sample who sometimes want some forms of rough sex. At the same time, the 37% "unwanted" shows that some men are either engaging in types of rough acts that women don't like and/or not making sure their partner wants it before they try it.
    Porn may not be giving unrealistic notions of women liking "rough sex" in general, so much as misrepresenting what types of rough sex they like and how to go about initiating it.

    It would be useful for research to use less broad categories of "rough" sex to identify those things that many vs. few women enjoy.
    For example, I wold predict that hair pulling and spanking are far more popular than "gagging" (using force on the back of a women's head during oral sex to the point where they are struggling to breathe and their eye's tear up).

  10. Top | #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
    A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.
    Thank God we have Christians around to tell us what those things are... Like Homosexuality.. amiright.. amiright?

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