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Thread: A Mars Colony

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Being part of a team, it would seem strange to be charging each other for doing whatever it is that their work entails within the team.


    There is always economics. Allocation of resources and how much each pepsin gets and how work is allocated. There will be greed, some will want more of whatever is available and so on.

    On STNG food replicators had a max energy allocation for individuals.
    Economics, how a society is organized and how it functions can take many forms.
    Yes but it comes down to who gets what and why regardless of the system.

    In light of the communist and capitalist systems we have seen and still exists how should a Mars colony be structured?

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    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Economics, how a society is organized and how it functions can take many forms.
    Yes but it comes down to who gets what and why regardless of the system.

    In light of the communist and capitalist systems we have seen and still exists how should a Mars colony be structured?
    Presumably in a way that benefits all members of that society so there is little or no resentment because no one has to struggle to make a basic living while others accumulate most of the colonies wealth and resources, becoming 'Lords of the Land' with their needs and wants attended to by a servile underclass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Economics, how a society is organized and how it functions can take many forms.
    Yes but it comes down to who gets what and why regardless of the system.

    In light of the communist and capitalist systems we have seen and still exists how should a Mars colony be structured?
    Presumably in a way that benefits all members of that society so there is little or no resentment because no one has to struggle to make a basic living while others accumulate most of the colonies wealth and resources, becoming 'Lords of the Land' with their needs and wants attended to by a servile underclass.
    That is probably what the Russian revolutionaries said about communism.

    You are IMO idealizing. I said choosing from current humans and 10,000 people for a reason. It is the size of a small town and large enough for factions and disputes to emerge. Who says what is fair and equitable? I am not being argumentative, but pragmatic given human behavior through history through today.

    Part of our heritage is genetic.

    The Soviets and Maoists thought they could create a fair society by fiat. Both failed.

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    Content Thief Elixir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Presumably in a way that benefits all members of that society so there is little or no resentment because no one has to struggle to make a basic living while others accumulate most of the colonies wealth and resources, becoming 'Lords of the Land' with their needs and wants attended to by a servile underclass.
    That is probably what the Russian revolutionaries said about communism.

    You are IMO idealizing.
    You asked for an idealism: "how should a Mars colony be structured?"

  5. Top | #15
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Presumably in a way that benefits all members of that society so there is little or no resentment because no one has to struggle to make a basic living while others accumulate most of the colonies wealth and resources, becoming 'Lords of the Land' with their needs and wants attended to by a servile underclass.
    That is probably what the Russian revolutionaries said about communism.

    You are IMO idealizing. I said choosing from current humans and 10,000 people for a reason. It is the size of a small town and large enough for factions and disputes to emerge. Who says what is fair and equitable? I am not being argumentative, but pragmatic given human behavior through history through today.

    Part of our heritage is genetic.

    The Soviets and Maoists thought they could create a fair society by fiat. Both failed.
    What Russians said about communist or what Capitalists say about capitalism is related to the fundamental issue of work/function, status and satisfying our hierarchy of physical needs and psychological wants.

    If we can't come up with anything better than one or the other of two extremes, we probably deserve to fail.
    Last edited by DBT; 12-17-2019 at 04:36 AM.

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    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Some imagine a Mars colony as a paradise free from troubles.
    Really? Who?
    Good question.

    All the speculation I have seen - particularly in fiction - seems to concentrate on the conflicts that might arise, and/or the disasters that might befall the people there.
    Last edited by bilby; 12-17-2019 at 05:28 AM.

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    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    The most plausible structure for an attempt to colonize Mars IMO is a quasi-military one, with strict rules, clear chain of command and rank structure, and headed by a commanding officer who has wide powers, presumably responsible to a national government on Earth.

    Typically that's how remote colonies on Earth started out too.

    How it evolves from there depends on a lot of factors - also just like terrestrial colonies.

    And whether it's the best structure is likely not going to get much consideration, at least not from those who will ultimately decide.

    From a sociological perspective, Mars today is perhaps closer to Earth than were places like French Polynesia, the Dutch East Indies, New Zealand, or New England, from the powers that led their colonisation.

    All of those earthbound governors would have been very impressed with the idea that a message to or from their masters back home could arrive in as little as 24 days, much less 24 minutes, of being sent.

    And the transit time for emergency supplies, once a request for them were received, would likely be lower, and definitely more certain, for a governor of Mars than for one at Port Jackson hoping for supply from England in the 1780s.

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    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    The most plausible structure for an attempt to colonize Mars IMO is a quasi-military one, with strict rules, clear chain of command and rank structure, and headed by a commanding officer who has wide powers, presumably responsible to a national government on Earth.

    .......

    And the transit time for emergency supplies, once a request for them were received, would likely be lower, and definitely more certain, for a governor of Mars than for one at Port Jackson hoping for supply from England in the 1780s.
    Examples of military-like organizations building viable, long lasting self sufficient, societies suggest parroting military organization is not the way to go.

    Alaxander's civilisations died shortly after did Alexander. Roman conquered societies took with hem Roman culture. engineering and law which proved the glue via roadway links whereby such conversions and startups survived. It definitely was not Roman army organization or discipline that could be credited with whatever survival resulted.

    Fast forward, British organized cultures depended on British law, culture, governance, and they all wound up breaking away form british rule keeping aspects of british culture for some period of time.

    American military only succeeded in Europe and Japan because american policy permitted organic reconstruction of existing cultures with some American/British governance precepts inplace. They are now evolving under pressure of external migration closer to pre-existing governance, tribal for the most part, dropping egalitarian aspects of A/B culture as they do. In fact even America and Britian are responding to Tribal tendencies as well.

    Recent american military attempts to reorganize more primitive nativist cultures seem to be falling by the wayside with the end of american money and military presence.

    So, no. Military organization of new states will pretty much revert to what local conditions dictate for survival on places where no previous governance existed as it seems all civilizations do over time. My best guess is that a Jamestown, a dead colony after less than a generation, result will be the outcome of Mars immigration whatever governance is brought along in establishment. Physical communication with existing cultures will be tenuous thereby bringing on rapid decay because of poor intellectual commerce maintenance.

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    Content Thief Elixir's Avatar
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    Since it can be assumed that the first Mars settlers will all be very exceptional individuals of great intelligence and ability, let 'em have a rock-paper-scissors tournament for the leadership position.

    I am reminded of Clarke's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", where the lunar colony revolted against earth. Most of the human dynamics of a successful Mars colony were imagined in that story (iirc - it's been over 50 yrs since I read it). The main difference was that earth was within throwing distance of the lunar colony (they threw rocks at the earth). Mars... not so much.

  10. Top | #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    Since it can be assumed that the first Mars settlers will all be very exceptional individuals of great intelligence and ability, let 'em have a rock-paper-scissors tournament for the leadership position.

    I am reminded of Clarke's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", where the lunar colony revolted against earth. Most of the human dynamics of a successful Mars colony were imagined in that story (iirc - it's been over 50 yrs since I read it). The main difference was that earth was within throwing distance of the lunar colony (they threw rocks at the earth). Mars... not so much.
    Mars could throw rocks at Earth, they just would need a bit more in the way of guidance. Luna had radar all the way in, they were using command guidance with no seeker capability on their rocks. I don't think Mars could do that, though.

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