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Thread: A Mars Colony

  1. Top | #21
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Sure. Just rocket up to phobos (fear) and deimos (dead). Attach and ignite shaped charges of proper proportions and timing. Let them follow laws of gravity to earth in a few years. Getting hit by a couple big rocks around the size of the meteor that struck off the coast of Mexico 65 million years agos should produce proper fear and dread on on earth.

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    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    So it would fall back into the same old pattern of Monkey Business? Self interest, exploitation, mistrust, conflict, winners and losers, rich and poor?

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    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    So it would fall back into the same old pattern of Monkey Business? Self interest, exploitation, mistrust, conflict, winners and losers, rich and poor?
    No system will work that does not recognize and understand human nature. Anyone setting up a system that denies how evolution has shaped human nature in order to implement what they consider a "better" system don't.

    ..Humans, like all animals, want maximum return for minimum effort.
    ..Humans are interested in their personal and family well being and security.
    ..Humans associate with small identifiable groups.
    ..Humans are less trusting of others outside their identifiable group.

    The 'best' workable system is the one that best uses human nature in its structure. A system that demands human nature change is one that will have severe problems.

  4. Top | #24
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    And what system would that be? What form would it take?

  5. Top | #25
    Content Thief Elixir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    Since it can be assumed that the first Mars settlers will all be very exceptional individuals of great intelligence and ability, let 'em have a rock-paper-scissors tournament for the leadership position.

    I am reminded of Clarke's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", where the lunar colony revolted against earth. Most of the human dynamics of a successful Mars colony were imagined in that story (iirc - it's been over 50 yrs since I read it). The main difference was that earth was within throwing distance of the lunar colony (they threw rocks at the earth). Mars... not so much.
    Mars could throw rocks at Earth, they just would need a bit more in the way of guidance. Luna had radar all the way in, they were using command guidance with no seeker capability on their rocks. I don't think Mars could do that, though.
    Onboard steering would be a very expensive add-on for a fledgling Mars colony to afford.

    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    The 'best' workable system is the one that best uses human nature in its structure. A system that demands human nature change is one that will have severe problems.
    Alrighty then, a solo mission it is!

  6. Top | #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Presumably in a way that benefits all members of that society so there is little or no resentment because no one has to struggle to make a basic living while others accumulate most of the colonies wealth and resources, becoming 'Lords of the Land' with their needs and wants attended to by a servile underclass.
    That is probably what the Russian revolutionaries said about communism.

    You are IMO idealizing. I said choosing from current humans and 10,000 people for a reason. It is the size of a small town and large enough for factions and disputes to emerge. Who says what is fair and equitable? I am not being argumentative, but pragmatic given human behavior through history through today.

    Part of our heritage is genetic.

    The Soviets and Maoists thought they could create a fair society by fiat. Both failed.
    What Russians said about communist or what Capitalists say about capitalism is related to the fundamental issue of work/function, status and satisfying our hierarchy of physical needs and psychological wants.

    If we can't come up with anything better than one or the other of two extremes, we probably deserve to fail.
    If you belive evolution selects for survival traits, success is survival of the organism.

    I watched an ingesting show on monkeys. It turns out without articulate language monkeys can be transnational and perceive inequities. Put two monkeys in side by side cages. Feed then grapes a preferred food for a while then feed one less desirable food. The monkey with the less desirable food gets pissed.

    In other experiments monkeys can get transnational, a form of bartering with relative values.

    Point being we are bound by our genetics in the end. Capitalism seems to work because it is in line with our competitive nature.

    A closed space environment with no outlet for the alphas would seem to be doomed to conflict.

  7. Top | #27
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    When you think of a Mars colony do you imagine heroically exploring Mars in a space suit with witty Hollywood dialogue, or do you imagine a routine work a day life?

    A climate controlled environment hat never changes. No wind, rain, birds, oceans, snow, night, day. A dull lifeless background outside the habitat. No sunshine.

    I do not see how humans could live like that without breaking down. Same with a generational space ship.

  8. Top | #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Some imagine a Mars colony as a paradise free from troubles.
    Really? Who?
    It is written.

  9. Top | #29
    Veteran Member James Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Some imagine a Mars colony as a paradise free from troubles.
    Really? Who?
    It is written.
    Ah, well then.

  10. Top | #30
    Veteran Member James Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    When you think of a Mars colony do you imagine heroically exploring Mars in a space suit with witty Hollywood dialogue, or do you imagine a routine work a day life?
    It can't be both?

    A climate controlled environment hat never changes. No wind, rain, birds, oceans, snow, night, day.
    Colonists, if they so desire, could tweak their environment to introduce variety in temperatures. They could have warm and cold seasons, variations in humidity, etc. If they decided that wind was necessary to keep them from going insane, then they could set up box fans in a 'wind room' and people could feel the air blowing across their skin to their heart's content. Same with 'rain rooms' (recycled water fed through sprinklers). Snow might be more difficult. And I don't know if you know this, but Mars has daytime and nighttime, almost identical to that of Earth.

    People are creative, and necessity is the mother of invention. Imagine telling people who live in the Sahara Desert that there are people who live in houses of ice (and vice versa). They might think those people would go insane, and yet humans learn to adapt. Just because I may not want to live in a particular environment does not mean that no one will, especially if there's money to be made in it.

    A dull lifeless background outside the habitat.
    "Dull" is an opinion, a value. Some people value the stark background of a desert environment, where monochromatic landscapes are common.











    Pink skies, blue sunsets, caves for spelunking, a Grand Canyon as large as the United States, the largest volcano in the solar system--but one where you could reach the peak on a bicycle--there's plenty of natural beauty and wonders on Mars to astound and amaze. I would go in a heartbeat if I could.

    No sunshine.
    I don't know if you know this, but the sun shines on Mars.

    I do not see how humans could live like that without breaking down.
    Yes, you've made it clear in the past that you would not be interested in such a lifestyle. But people couldn't imagine riding a boat for six months across oceans and make a life in an unexplored, hostile, and barren landscape. Fortunately for us, other people ignored them and explored. We are the descendants of explorers, and we should get out of the way of those who want to continue the legacy.

    Same with a generational space ship.
    Now on that we agree. How would people who have lived their lines on a confined space ever deal with leaving it to walk around under an open sky? Whatever is the opposite of claustrophobia, they would likely suffer from it.
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