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Thread: "This viral comic about working motherhood is so true"

  1. Top | #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog
    People are going to choose to have children. That is the reality. And those choices are not always based on rational decision-making
    So what? It's still a choice they made. If they now regret it, ok. But their choice still has consequences. Same with pretty much any other choice you freely make. You want to have kids? You'll need to find a way to raise them. Nannies, house husband's, not having them in the first place, abortion, adoption are all options.

    Don't have kids if you aren't prepared to care for them or to arrange for their care. Kids are a life long obligation. Treat it as such before having a kid. Not thinking it through isn't an excuse for you to resent the needs of a child you brought into world.
    I don’t remember you having the same attitudes about men who become parents.
    You didn't ask. I have exactly the same attitudes about men who become parents. Nobody should bring kids into this world if they are not prepared to raise them or see to them being raised.

  2. Top | #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    There are hurdles created by social conventions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Actual laws against them perhaps?
    Prostitutes choose their profession and they know it is illegal. They choose to remain where it is illegal instead of moving to where it is legal. The principle of choice is the same in both instances. Yet your progressive liberal response is radically different. With child-bearing women who work, it is to hold them responsible for their choices instead of advocating or even understanding the restrictions on their choices. With prostitutes who ply their trade where prostitution is illegal, your response is to work to get rid of the restrictions instead of holding them responsible for their choices.

    I certainly can understand why you would not willing to face your glaring double standard.
    It isn't. The restrictions are legal restrictions, which have legal remedies.

    In the case of working mothers, there are no legal restrictions preventing them from choosing to marry house husbands. Or choosing to delay or avoid having children altogether. I suspect if there were, Jolly would support removing those restrictions.

  3. Top | #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post


    I said not have kids or be the ones raising them. These men who are not raising kids may be either. Other men actually do take on the duties of raising kids.
    Right. Because it’s women’s choice when men generally don’t do their fair share. And the existence of some men who do is relevant because.........it’s most women’s fault for having kids with men who as it turns out aren’t willing to be one of those?

    Oh you genuine gender egalitarian you.
    Of course it was their choice. They married the guys, or chose to have children with them.

    In most cases, women are attracted to the sort of guy who would do this in the first place, the guy with a big career focus. Indeed, being not very focused on your career and willing to do something like being a stay-at-home father is the sort of thing that will make it difficult for a guy to find a wife.

    Women want to have their cake and eat it too. There are plenty of guys who would be willing to be house-husbands. Marry those guys.

    In my own family, both my older brothers turned out to carry the burden of child-rearing, for different reasons. But it happens. And those guys exist.

  4. Top | #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    So have many. Contraception is also a thing, as abortion and adoption. Come join the modern west where women have all these choices.
    So your solution for the artist, for instance, is for the entire female population of Peru to pick up and move to a somewhat fictionalized version of Canada? Rather than, through art, trying to influence the problem she sees in her society?
    His solution is ‘women should stop complaining because it’s their own fault’.

    It’s times like this that we can see that Jolly’s underlying objections don’t inherently or actually in the final analysis only have to do with, for example, Chanty Binx’s abrasive approach, but extend to ‘women just speaking up’.
    What a load of nonsense.

  5. Top | #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by J842P View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    There are hurdles created by social conventions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Actual laws against them perhaps?
    Prostitutes choose their profession and they know it is illegal. They choose to remain where it is illegal instead of moving to where it is legal. The principle of choice is the same in both instances. Yet your progressive liberal response is radically different. With child-bearing women who work, it is to hold them responsible for their choices instead of advocating or even understanding the restrictions on their choices. With prostitutes who ply their trade where prostitution is illegal, your response is to work to get rid of the restrictions instead of holding them responsible for their choices.

    I certainly can understand why you would not willing to face your glaring double standard.
    It isn't....
    Wrong. You miss the point - in both cases these women make choices based on their lifes and community. Being a prostitute is not like sneezing - people have choices either to forego prostitution where it is illegal and do something else or to move where prostitution is legal. So, if they choose to practice prostitution where it is illegal, they have no valid complaints about their situation, since they made a choice and it doesn't matter why they made that choice (JP's standards). In principle that is no different than telling women that since they choose to have children, they have no complaints.


    Unlike JP, I do not subscribe to the view that because they made a choice, there is no reason for them to point out the obstacles or hurdles they face or that they may be the victims of unfair expectations. I find the "they made a choice" response to be based on a the vacuum approach (i.e. context free) to social issues. At best, it is a flippant, non-reflective response.

  6. Top | #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post

    I don’t remember you having the same attitudes about men who become parents.
    You didn't ask. I have exactly the same attitudes about men who become parents. Nobody should bring kids into this world if they are not prepared to raise them or see to them being raised.
    You've mentioned before and have shown little sympathy towards women who raise children and seem just fine with men leaving all that business to women.

    I also think that nobody should raise children unless they want to raise children and are prepared to make the commitment of time and other resources and sacrifices to raise them.

    But society makes it much harder than it needs to for parents--and at the same time, society benefits from having healthy, happy well raised children who grow up to be healthy, happy and productive adults. No matter what anybody thinks, we don't raise our children in isolation or alone.

    My opinion is that our society is at its best when it does the best job possible at providing for the most vulnerable: children and elderly, the sick, the injured, the poor. When they are well provided for, so are the rest of society.

  7. Top | #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by J842P View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post


    I said not have kids or be the ones raising them. These men who are not raising kids may be either. Other men actually do take on the duties of raising kids.
    Right. Because it’s women’s choice when men generally don’t do their fair share. And the existence of some men who do is relevant because.........it’s most women’s fault for having kids with men who as it turns out aren’t willing to be one of those?

    Oh you genuine gender egalitarian you.
    Of course it was their choice. They married the guys, or chose to have children with them.

    In most cases, women are attracted to the sort of guy who would do this in the first place, the guy with a big career focus. Indeed, being not very focused on your career and willing to do something like being a stay-at-home father is the sort of thing that will make it difficult for a guy to find a wife.

    True story and one I've told before. When we were first parents, I worked full time and my husband was a grad student and spent a couple of days a week at home with our son, who was in day care part time. We didn't have much money and frankly we looked pretty scruffy, especially my husband who didn't care much about how nicely he was dressed or when his last haircut had been.

    We usually went grocery shopping, we often did it together, all 3 of us. Hubby usually pushed the cart with baby sitting in it, and made a great adventure and game out of counting out how many oranges we would get or finding the right cereal box, etc. Often, to be more efficient, I walked down another aisle to find something--and when I would come back, it was not at all uncommon to see women practically drooling over my scruffy (but extremely handsome under the scruff) husband as he cheerfully talked with, played with, amused our child as they picked out needed supplies for the week.

    Yeah, women find men who like children and are good with them to be extremely attractive. My sisters have always been envious of the fact that my husband is excellent with small children and is also a good cook.



    Women want to have their cake and eat it too.
    T

    You mean women want to have a career and a family. Like men do.

    There are plenty of guys who would be willing to be house-husbands. Marry those guys.
    There aren't really so many of them. Besides, why should either parent have to choose between having children and having a career? Why can't both parents be equally involved in caring for children and home? That's actually the model I see among young families these days. Your attitude seems old-fashioned to the point of being backward.

  8. Top | #48
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    Right. Because it’s women’s choice when men generally don’t do their fair share. And the existence of some men who do is relevant because.........it’s most women’s fault for having kids with men who as it turns out aren’t willing to be one of those?
    Yes, it is women's choice what men they select to have offspring with. (I'm also unsure what you think a 'fair share' is, but that's a different story).

    "As it turns out"? You realise you should probably get to know people before you have kids with them, right? If you want to marry somebody and you have particular attitudes about what percentage of domestic duties you want them to do, you should probably find out.

  9. Top | #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    There aren't really so many of them. Besides, why should either parent have to choose between having children and having a career? Why can't both parents be equally involved in caring for children and home?
    Because it's none of your business how other couples organise their affairs?

  10. Top | #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    There aren't really so many of them. Besides, why should either parent have to choose between having children and having a career? Why can't both parents be equally involved in caring for children and home?
    Because it's none of your business how other couples organise their affairs?
    What part of the word ‘chose’ do you not understand?

    If I were to assert that it is the man’s choice to engage in sex that might result in parenthood for him and that he had therefore made a choice to put caring for children ahead of his career, you’d have a meltdown. You’d get insrnsed if I suggested that men should leave the child rearing to womenfolk who are suited for it and work themselves into early graves to provide for their families.

    I think that societal expectations are too rigid for men and for women and that children do best when both parents are invited over and not too exhausted or distracted by work to properly care for them.

    Currently, the ‘choice’that society supports is that women take on the brunt of the household and child rearing chores while maintaining a career that can support the family if dad takes off but is not so demanding or structured that they can’t take time off when kids (or grandma or grandpa or dad) need them to—and men get bumps in their careers because they need it because they have a wife and children.

    It really doesn’t serve the best interests of anybody.

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