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Thread: Xmas Stuff

  1. Top | #21
    Mad Quilter Old Woman in Purple's Avatar
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    Santa brought me the MOST COMFORTABLE schlumpy cardigan to gad about my house in! (my last one having holes worn in the elbows.) It even has functional POCKETS!

    I am actually thrilled!

    I was intending to toss the old one, but my cats have informed me that they NEED to nest/sleep on it a while, thankyouverymuch.... So, between that & their new 4' scratching post, I guess THEY've had a good haul for Xmas, too.

  2. Top | #22
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    The usual account of Jesus Christ's birth is a conflation of the Matthew and the Luke accounts.

    Matthew:

    Genealogy: Abraham to David to Joseph. While Joseph and Mary were engaged, the Holy Spirit made Mary pregnant, and an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him that it was OK to go ahead with the marriage, because of what a great child Mary will have. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ in Bethlehem during King Herod's reign over Judea.

    Some wise men came from the east to give their honors to the baby JC, calling him the king of the Jews and noticing a certain star in the sky. Herod asked those gentlemen about this, and he sent them to look for the baby JC. They followed that star to JC's birthplace, and they gave him some gifts: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

    Frankincense
    Frankincense (also known as olibanum, Hebrew: לבונה‎ [levona], Arabic: اللبان‎ al-libān or Arabic: البخور‎ al-bakhūr) is an aromatic resin used in incense and perfumes, obtained from trees of the genus Boswellia in the family Burseraceae, particularly Boswellia sacra (syn. B. bhaw-dajiana), B. carterii, B. frereana, B. serrata (B. thurifera, Indian frankincense), and B. papyrifera. The word is from Old French franc encens ('high-quality incense').[1]
    Myrrh
    Myrrh (/mɜːr/; from Aramaic, but see § Etymology) is a natural gum or resin extracted from a number of small, thorny tree species of the genus Commiphora.[1] Myrrh resin has been used throughout history as a perfume, incense, and medicine. Myrrh mixed with wine can also be ingested.[citation needed]
    Gold and tree resins. What gifts.

    The wise men got a warning in a dream not to return to Herod, and they returned home by a different route. Then an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him to flee to Egypt with Mary and JC, because Herod will try to kill JC. Joseph did that, and when Herod found out about that, he ordered the killing of the baby boys of Bethlehem and the nearby area.

    After Herod died, an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him that it was safe to return, though he chose to settle in Nazareth.

  3. Top | #23
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Luke:

    Luke starts off by bragging about all the work that he did in assembling the accounts that he worked from.

    During King Herod's reign, a certain Zechariah was a priest. He and his wife Elizabeth were unable to have a child for several years, despite their being very virtuous. When Zechariah was burning some incense in a holy place, an angel appeared before him and assured him that Elizabeth would indeed get pregnant. Which she did.

    While Elizabeth was pregnant, an angel appeared to Mary and told her that she will have a very great child. Since there is no man around to make her pregnant, it will be the Holy Spirit who will do that. Just as Elizabeth miraculously got pregnant, Mary will also. Elizabeth then gave birth to a child who grew up to be John the Baptist.

    Augustus Caesar decreed that everybody in the Roman Empire was to be listed for paying taxes, and that they would have to go to their ancestral homes to do so. By then, Joseph and Mary were engaged, and they had to go from Nazareth to Bethlehem for that. They could not find a place to stay, so when Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, she had to place him in a manger, a feeding trough.

    Some shepherds were watching over their sheep in a nearby field, and an angel appeared to them and told them about a great child that had been born in Bethlehem, and that he was resting in a manger. They looked and they found Joseph and Mary and JC, and they gave Joseph and Mary that great news about JC.

    Luke gets into JC's genealogy a little bit later: God - Adam - Abraham - David - Joseph.

  4. Top | #24
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Of the other two canonical gospels, Mark starts out with John the Baptist baptizing an adult Jesus Christ, and John starts out with a very metaphysical sort of origin. I don't know about the noncanonical ones.

    We have no idea who wrote the canonical four Gospels, or even the noncanoncal ones (I recall some 40, but I'm not sure). The authors' names are a later tradition, and it must be noted that they form a convenient shorthand. "Matthew" is "whoever wrote the Gospel of Matthew".

    The usual birth story is a combination of Matthew's and Luke's stories, though it's curious that Luke omitted a lot of big details that Matthew mentioned, and vice versa.

    Matthew's and Luke's genealogies are even worse -- most of their names are different.


    Having to go to one's home town to get listed for taxes, that is totally unhistorical. There is no independent documentation of having to do that, it is a logistical nightmare, and it is unnecessary.

    Killing those Bethlehem baby boys is an atrocity not mentioned in any other source on Herod, though the other sources that we have on him make him seem paranoid and murderous. Meaning that that massacre would have been completely in character for him.

  5. Top | #25
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    Of the other two canonical gospels, Mark starts out with John the Baptist baptizing an adult Jesus Christ, and John starts out with a very metaphysical sort of origin. I don't know about the noncanonical ones.

    We have no idea who wrote the canonical four Gospels, or even the noncanoncal ones (I recall some 40, but I'm not sure). The authors' names are a later tradition, and it must be noted that they form a convenient shorthand. "Matthew" is "whoever wrote the Gospel of Matthew".

    The usual birth story is a combination of Matthew's and Luke's stories, though it's curious that Luke omitted a lot of big details that Matthew mentioned, and vice versa.

    Matthew's and Luke's genealogies are even worse -- most of their names are different.


    Having to go to one's home town to get listed for taxes, that is totally unhistorical. There is no independent documentation of having to do that, it is a logistical nightmare, and it is unnecessary.

    Killing those Bethlehem baby boys is an atrocity not mentioned in any other source on Herod, though the other sources that we have on him make him seem paranoid and murderous. Meaning that that massacre would have been completely in character for him.
    It seems a bit odd that a story would describe a non-historical census that had been conducted just fifty years before, though; wouldn't several members of the audience remember?
    Last edited by Politesse; 12-26-2019 at 11:44 PM.

  6. Top | #26
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    ...Gold and tree resins. What gifts.
    Gold - for the King
    Frankincense- for the Priest
    Myrrh - For Golgotha


    Having to go to one's home town to get listed for taxes, that is totally unhistorical. There is no independent documentation of having to do that, it is a logistical nightmare, and it is unnecessary.
    The Romans DID tax people and they did carry out censuses for the purposes of administering that taxation.
    How would you know if everyone was paying their tax if you didn't have an accurate head count?

  7. Top | #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    wouldn't several members of the audience remember?
    And what if they did? It's not like there was a central complaints department, or any consequences if an "audience member" were to stand up and say, "Hey, wait one damn minute! That's not how it happened!"

    Hell, the ending to the central storyline of the passion narrative is to have Pilate commit open treason against Rome with zero consequences and all in the service of appeasing festival Jews in a supposed "tradition" that could not possibly have ever been a tradition, much less something that actually happened.

    Plus we have instances within the books talking about how some people believed X while others believed Y, etc, including, perhaps most famously, at least one entire community that evidently did not even believe that the Jesus character resurrected from the dead.

    Didn't seem to change anything.

  8. Top | #28
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    wouldn't several members of the audience remember?
    And what if they did? It's not like there was a central complaints department, or any consequences if an audience member were to stand up and say, "That's not how it happened!"

    Plus we have instances within the books talking about how some people believed X while others believed Y, etc, including, perhaps most famously, at least one entire community that evidently did not even believe that the Jesus character resurrected from the dead.

    Didn't seem to change anything.
    Changed a lot! The story underwent quite a bit of change over the centuries.

  9. Top | #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    wouldn't several members of the audience remember?
    And what if they did? It's not like there was a central complaints department, or any consequences if an audience member were to stand up and say, "That's not how it happened!"

    Plus we have instances within the books talking about how some people believed X while others believed Y, etc, including, perhaps most famously, at least one entire community that evidently did not even believe that the Jesus character resurrected from the dead.

    Didn't seem to change anything.
    Changed a lot! The story underwent quite a bit of change over the centuries.
    How so?

    The only "change" I am aware of in regard to the PN is the inclusion of a counterfeit ending. The other later plagiarizers made their additions/alterations, but, again, no one seems to have stood up and said, "Hey, wait a minute! That didn't happen that way."

    At least no one who wrote down their critique or were of any consequence.

    ETA: I mean, "how so" in regard to people who were eyewitnesses standing up and saying, "That didn't happen that way" and there was a change to the story accordingly.

  10. Top | #30
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    Changed a lot! The story underwent quite a bit of change over the centuries.
    How so?
    The Nativity story? Read lpetrich's posts above, for starters.

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