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Thread: If the economy is so great, why don't more people feel better off?

  1. Top | #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Patooka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post
    You think that about Jim Cramer too?
    Are you talking about the idiot with the absurd money show who got eviscerated by some obscure comedian from New York during the financial crisis? Why would anyone use him as an authority on anything?
    Because unlike most everyone on this board, Cramer is not a political hack with some kind of liberal ax to grind.
    He has an agenda... as was exposed over a decade ago. And as previously noted, the economic state of the nation today is not much changed from its state in 2016. Yet, you want to somehow rain praise on Trump for improvements he walked into.
    I see him as someone who only cares about being right about stocks and money.
    *spit take* You misspelled ratings.

  2. Top | #82
    Content Thief Elixir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post

    Because unlike most everyone on this board, Cramer is not a political hack with some kind of liberal ax to grind.
    He has an agenda... as was exposed over a decade ago. And as previously noted, the economic state of the nation today is not much changed from its state in 2016. Yet, you want to somehow rain praise on Trump for improvements he walked into.
    I see him as someone who only cares about being right about stocks and money.
    *spit take* You misspelled ratings.
    He (correctly since they have most of the money in the stock market) sees his audience as more right wing than not. Acting all positive for their benefit is part of the schtick. If there was a Dem in office, he'd be warning of "corrections" every time there was a 0.25% dip in a major index.

  3. Top | #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    And, please don't say that these peoples should go back to school and learn a trade or get a degree. Not everyone is capable or has the time to do that. I did go back to school to become a nurse when I couldn't even get any job with my 3 years as an English major, but I was married, and lived an extremely frugal life, long before cell phones, the internet and cable television were invented. Not everyone has the extreme motivation that I had during that period of time. Not everyone is smart enough to earn a nursing degree or become a computer programmer, or a mechanic, electrician etc. Nobody should have to work for wages that are so low that they have to depend on help from the government along with food banks, etc. End of rant.
    The US is supposed to be a capitalistic economy. In that context, the only way for wages of low skilled jobs to rise is for either the supply of labor to decrease or the number of those type of jobs to increase.

    Say what you will about Trump. But he is actually addressing your rant by limiting the supply of low skilled labor entering the United States. Its just that simple and it is why unemployment for low skilled labor is now the best since the 1960's right now. Wages have not yet come up yet but having low unemployment is the start for demanding and getting higher wages. Keep out the illegal immigration and those wages WILL eventually rise.

    The paradox is that the democrats who pretend to be for the working poor have actually not represented their interests like Trump has. It is the secret they have over the ill informed to keep them voting democrat.

    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    Most older adults aren't benefitting from this economy.
    Most older adults today are part of the baby boomer generation. And they are the ones who now own all the housing property that has inflated massively thanks to the actions of the fed. If a baby boomer owns a now paid off home in San Fransisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, he (she) is extremely wealthy now. They have benefited from the system far more than other younger generations who are saddled with college debt.
    *sigh* We currently have a shortage of low skilled workers or haven't you noticed all the help wanted signs in front of stores like Walmart. Walmart has raised it's starting pay a bit, but it's still not enough for most people to live on. Minimum wages were never so harshly criticized during the decades when I was growing up. We have a mixed economy. It's capitalistic with a wide variety of social programs, as well as infrastructure that is supported by government etc. We actually need more immigrants due to the low birth rate that we are experiencing. Do you want the country to end up like Japan? I'm not saying we need "illegal immigrants", but Trump has drastically reduced the number of legal immigrants and refugees coming into the country.

    There has been a lot of misinformation spread regarding baby boomers. Sure, there are some in my generation who are quite well off, but the average boomer has about 60K in their 401K. and plenty of them have nothing, especially minority boomers. I gave money to a poor black boomer over the holidays so her granddaughter could get a few gifts. Not all boomers are successful white professionals.

    I'm doing okay because we've always lived well below our means. Why label all boomers in the same way? We are a huge, diverse, generation. When I was out protesting the Viet Nam War, many of my conservative peers were trying to shout us down. We've never been made up of all liberals or all conservatives. Don't judge the success of Boomers by what Trump has managed to accumulate. Don't believe the lies and stereotypes.

    To be honest, many in my parent's generation have done much better than boomers. My father was a high school dropout, but he was able to acquire a job that now requires a college degree. By the time I was in my 20s, jobs such as his required a college degree. Many in my parent's generation did live very frugally, which was likely the result of living through the Great Depression. Boomers had student loans. Many boomers spent time in the military due to the draft. My ex did and that set us back for years, since the pay for a family of 3 was 200 per month during his first year in the army. We didn't have a phone or tv for several years, but that wasn't important. It was important to be able to have a roof over our heads, food on the table and transportation. In fact, I used to ride a bicycle all over the city with a baby strapped in a seat on the back. Yeah, we boomers had it made.

    I'm not judging the younger generations, as all generations are influenced by the times in which they are raised. But, my son, a Gen X had it much better than I ever did. He made a great salary as soon as he finished his degree, which was paid for, by. us, and the work he did during the summers. My millennial niece also did very well once she finished school. Her boomer parents paid for her college. Then she lived with her mother until she had enough money to buy a home. My point is that you can't make generalizations about all the members of any generation. Some do well. Some don't.

    But, this economy hasn't done a thing for the average retired person Not all boomers are older adults. Some are in their mid 50s. You just assumed that when I said, "older adults" I was referring to boomers. There are still two generations ahead of mine who are still alive. My 94 year old mother is still alive, and so are a lot of other members of the Greatest Generation. When I retired two years ago, I had many patients in their mid to late 90s. The Silent Generation has many living members, such as Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden. That generation has millions of older adults in their late 70s and 80s. So, when someone mentions older adults, please realize that a good percentage of them aren't boomers. If you want to bash a boomer, bash Trump. .

    PS. We bought our current home in 1998 and it's worth about 50K more than what we paid for it. We have spent over 80 K updating and maintaining it. Where in the world did you get the idea that all boomers own property that has drastically risen in value? During the Bush era, my home lost value for awhile. During the Obama era, it regained that value. And now, that millennials are starting to buy homes like mad, it's beginning to appreciate again. Supply and demand is what makes homes increase in value. Low interest rates makes them more affordable, so when the rates dropped so much by the FED, millennials were able to afford to start buying homes. But, I obviously digress.......

  4. Top | #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post
    But he is actually addressing your rant by limiting the supply of low skilled labor entering the United States. Its just that simple and it is why unemployment for low skilled labor is now the best since the 1960's right now. Wages have not yet come up yet but having low unemployment is the start for demanding and getting higher wages. Keep out the illegal immigration and those wages WILL eventually rise.
    By reducing illegal immigration and legal immigration, the demand for low skilled jobs is also reduced. Are you forgetting that immigrants also consume products and services?

  5. Top | #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    Sorry, but imo, a big part of the reason why the stock market has continued to rise is due to two things. The Republicans gave corporations a huge tax break, and a lot of the largest corporations used that extra money for stock buy backs.

    Wages only went up 2.9 percent, after being stagnant for many years. That's really not going to help those who work in retail, as nursing aides, or any other type of low skilled labor.

    And, please don't say that these peoples should go back to school and learn a trade or get a degree. Not everyone is capable or has the time to do that. I did go back to school to become a nurse when I couldn't even get any job with my 3 years as an English major, but I was married, and lived an extremely frugal life, long before cell phones, the internet and cable television were invented. Not everyone has the extreme motivation that I had during that period of time. Not everyone is smart enough to earn a nursing degree or become a computer programmer, or a mechanic, electrician etc. Nobody should have to work for wages that are so low that they have to depend on help from the government along with food banks, etc. End of rant.

    The economy is doing well for the wealthy and those who have college degrees in areas where the pay is generous. For the rest, it's not so good at all. Poor people don't own stocks, so the stock market is a poor indicator of the over all economy. For older adults, the low interest rates are not helpful, since most older adults can't afford or don't feel comfortable risking their savings in the stock market.

    Most older adults aren't benefitting from this economy. Medicare Part B premium has just risen again for the third year in a row. Drug copays are erratic, and Social Security raises have been pittance because inflation has been low. Low inflation is good up to a point, but it can be harmful if it's consistently less than 2 percent. The current economy is over rated imo.
    Your numbers for the lower end of the wage scale are off a bit:

    As the analysis has shown us, wage growth at the bottom is doing well. It has been around 4.1 percent over the last two years — above the 3.6 percent at the top end, and above the overall average of 3.9 percent.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/03/u...m-earners.html

    They are defining the "bottom" as the bottom 1/3 of wage earners.

  6. Top | #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axulus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post
    But he is actually addressing your rant by limiting the supply of low skilled labor entering the United States. Its just that simple and it is why unemployment for low skilled labor is now the best since the 1960's right now. Wages have not yet come up yet but having low unemployment is the start for demanding and getting higher wages. Keep out the illegal immigration and those wages WILL eventually rise.
    By reducing illegal immigration and legal immigration, the demand for low skilled jobs is also reduced. Are you forgetting that immigrants also consume products and services?
    They are mostly sending their paychecks back to relatives in Mexico and NOT purchasing anything in the US.

  7. Top | #87
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Business Insider on Twitter: "@AOC tweeted that record-high stock prices amid low wage growth shows 'inequality in a nutshell.' These 6 charts show why she's right. https://t.co/qvQA8FgwgT" / Twitter

    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez tweet: Stock market and average Americans - Business Insider
    The Dow Jones average dropped from 2018 to 2019, then started going up again in a nearly straight line, slowing down a bit in 2016.

    Boundaries of wealth fractions used: 0% - 25% - 50% - 75% - 90% - 100%

    Most Americans don't own much stock. By wealth fraction: 2%, 6%, 13%, 25%, 51%

    Only some Americans have retirement accounts. By wealth fraction: 19%, 43%, 64%, 79%, 89%

    Value of stock holdings is heavily skewed to the top. By wealth fraction: $1,700, $3,300, $7,000, $28,000, $200,000

    Value in retirement accounts is likewise heavily skewed to the top. By wealth fraction: $4,300, $15,000, $52,000, $198,000, $630,000

    Average hourly wage growth dropped rather fast in 2009, then slowly crept back up to about 2018, then decreased at much the same rate.

  8. Top | #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axulus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post
    But he is actually addressing your rant by limiting the supply of low skilled labor entering the United States. Its just that simple and it is why unemployment for low skilled labor is now the best since the 1960's right now. Wages have not yet come up yet but having low unemployment is the start for demanding and getting higher wages. Keep out the illegal immigration and those wages WILL eventually rise.
    By reducing illegal immigration and legal immigration, the demand for low skilled jobs is also reduced. Are you forgetting that immigrants also consume products and services?
    Yes, but not as much as they contribute to the pool of low wage workers. Reducing illegal immigration would drive up wages.

  9. Top | #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Axulus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post
    But he is actually addressing your rant by limiting the supply of low skilled labor entering the United States. Its just that simple and it is why unemployment for low skilled labor is now the best since the 1960's right now. Wages have not yet come up yet but having low unemployment is the start for demanding and getting higher wages. Keep out the illegal immigration and those wages WILL eventually rise.
    By reducing illegal immigration and legal immigration, the demand for low skilled jobs is also reduced. Are you forgetting that immigrants also consume products and services?
    They are mostly sending their paychecks back to relatives in Mexico and NOT purchasing anything in the US.
    I am surprised they last more than 2 weeks in the USA if they are not purchasing anything in the USA.

  10. Top | #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Axulus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RVonse View Post
    But he is actually addressing your rant by limiting the supply of low skilled labor entering the United States. Its just that simple and it is why unemployment for low skilled labor is now the best since the 1960's right now. Wages have not yet come up yet but having low unemployment is the start for demanding and getting higher wages. Keep out the illegal immigration and those wages WILL eventually rise.
    By reducing illegal immigration and legal immigration, the demand for low skilled jobs is also reduced. Are you forgetting that immigrants also consume products and services?
    They are mostly sending their paychecks back to relatives in Mexico and NOT purchasing anything in the US.
    I know and have interacted with a couple of undocumented immigrants who have been here for well over a decade. They do send some money back home to their families, but they also pay rent, buy clothing, food and even go to a doctor when they are sick. So, it's absurd to say that they spend nothing here. What a stupid remark. The man who I know works as a cook in a Mexican restaurant. He works 60 house a week and rides a bicycle to work because he can't afford a car. How many Americans work that hard?

    Of course, I would prefer that we be more open to allowing hard working immigrants into the country, legally. It's become close to impossible for people like the couple I know to get in legally. I'm not saying we should let everyone in who wants, but we do need a lot more young immigrants than we currently have here. Read about what's going on in Japan and then explain to me how a country with an extremely low birth rate manages to maintain a good economy.

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