Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 27

Thread: Free Will And Free Choice

  1. Top | #1
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    seattle
    Posts
    5,615
    Rep Power
    14

    Free Will And Free Choice

    To me free will and free choice are two different things.

    You go to buy a car and you choose one or another. It is a free choice mending no direct coercion.

    Free will implies a deeper state of making completely unconditioned choices. I do not think it exists.

    When you choose a car you are conditioned by advertising and what others have. You imagine what the car will make you look like.

    We are all conditioned starting in the womb. There is genetic conditioning and characteristics.

    There is a point at which sex drives over rides choice.

  2. Top | #2
    Super Moderator Bronzeage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Deep South
    Posts
    6,848
    Archived
    7,568
    Total Posts
    14,416
    Rep Power
    41
    If I had free will and free choice, I would wake up ever morning and choose whether to I wanted to travel to work by use of my my jet pack or my rocket boots.

    The problem with the will and choice is always the natural limits on either. There are many actions within my abilities I do not want to do. That is my free will. At any point in time, I have limited options, so I don't really have free choice, when the I can't have my desired choice. It might be out of reach, or it might be a fantasy.

  3. Top | #3
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן
    Posts
    9,539
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    27,445
    Rep Power
    72
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    To me free will and free choice are two different things.

    You go to buy a car and you choose one or another. It is a free choice mending no direct coercion.

    Free will implies a deeper state of making completely unconditioned choices. I do not think it exists.

    When you choose a car you are conditioned by advertising and what others have. You imagine what the car will make you look like.

    We are all conditioned starting in the womb. There is genetic conditioning and characteristics.

    There is a point at which sex drives over rides choice.
    What is chosen depends on a whole wagon train of antecedent causal factors, past experience forming attractions and things to avoid, a desired outcome/cost to benefit ratio forming a set of criteria that determines the decision being made. We have the ability to choose, but that is not the same as 'free will.''

  4. Top | #4
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    3,032
    Rep Power
    12
    I find the entire notion of free will to be incoherent. What is supposed to be making this "choice"? The brain is a complicated system to be sure but it is inherently responsive - it does nothing "on its own" but is bound to respond to external stimuli somehow, as is the function of any brain in any vertebrate organism. There is no apparatus for creating thoughts or opinions independent of one's surroundings. Derived, adapted, inferrred, or delayed, but never entirely invented. So by what definition of "free" could this process ever be defined?

  5. Top | #5
    Formerly Joedad
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    PA USA
    Posts
    5,807
    Archived
    5,039
    Total Posts
    10,846
    Rep Power
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    To me free will and free choice are two different things.

    You go to buy a car and you choose one or another. It is a free choice mending no direct coercion.

    Free will implies a deeper state of making completely unconditioned choices. I do not think it exists.

    When you choose a car you are conditioned by advertising and what others have. You imagine what the car will make you look like.

    We are all conditioned starting in the womb. There is genetic conditioning and characteristics.

    There is a point at which sex drives over rides choice.
    If a person referring to free will is actually thinking along these lines I can understand their position. Free will is really conditional or conditioned choice, but a free will advocate sees it as unconditional or unconditioned choice. Free will advocates are saying we are able to make choices using knowledge we do not possess.

  6. Top | #6
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן
    Posts
    9,539
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    27,445
    Rep Power
    72
    Brain architecture and function is not willed, A decision is an option selected according to a set criteria, something that any species of animal with a sufficiently complex brain can do.

  7. Top | #7
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    seattle
    Posts
    5,615
    Rep Power
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    I find the entire notion of free will to be incoherent. What is supposed to be making this "choice"? The brain is a complicated system to be sure but it is inherently responsive - it does nothing "on its own" but is bound to respond to external stimuli somehow, as is the function of any brain in any vertebrate organism. There is no apparatus for creating thoughts or opinions independent of one's surroundings. Derived, adapted, inferrred, or delayed, but never entirely invented. So by what definition of "free" could this process ever be defined?
    Part of the Christian theology is the idea that god gave humans the free will to choose between what god wants and what god does not want.

    If there is no free will then god's creation are just automatons programed to obey god....puppets.

    As to 'who' makes the choices has a number of traditional angers in non Abrahamic traditions. Do you not know who and what 'you' are?

  8. Top | #8
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן
    Posts
    9,539
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    27,445
    Rep Power
    72
    Is there nothing inbetween? Only 'free will' - whatever that is supposed to be - and 'automatons?'

  9. Top | #9
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    3,032
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    I find the entire notion of free will to be incoherent. What is supposed to be making this "choice"? The brain is a complicated system to be sure but it is inherently responsive - it does nothing "on its own" but is bound to respond to external stimuli somehow, as is the function of any brain in any vertebrate organism. There is no apparatus for creating thoughts or opinions independent of one's surroundings. Derived, adapted, inferrred, or delayed, but never entirely invented. So by what definition of "free" could this process ever be defined?
    Part of the Christian theology is the idea that god gave humans the free will to choose between what god wants and what god does not want.

    If there is no free will then god's creation are just automatons programed to obey god....puppets.

    As to 'who' makes the choices has a number of traditional angers in non Abrahamic traditions. Do you not know who and what 'you' are?
    I see you've never met a Calvinist! This has historically been a subject of much debate, within all three of the dominamt Abrahamic traditions in fact. The Bible and Qur'an themselves are ambiguous at best and possibly contradictory, so it comes down to what side one takes in one of the most ancient of theological disputes. If God exists, I don't believe that we have more power than god to control our destiny, no. What would that make of omnipotence?

    But you know, this is a predominately atheist forum. I would generally expect the array of opinions among most of the posters here to have more scientific rather than paranormal explanations. Is this a wrong assumption?

    I would consider "selfhood" to be an even thornier issue than free will, since you ask.

  10. Top | #10
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    3,032
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Is there nothing inbetween? Only 'free will' - whatever that is supposed to be - and 'automatons?'
    Well, perhaps you could explain what being half automatic would look like, and what physiological system would accommodate this state?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •