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Thread: Free Will And Free Choice

  1. Top | #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    If you have no free will then you can have no opinion that is meaningful. No opinion that you arrived at with reason.

    Every word you say is just a brain reflex and it means nothing.

    You can't even hope to have something like comprehension of the world.

    An unfree zombie proposing there is no free will is not proposing an idea. It is just something the zombie is forced to think.

    People that make arguments about how they don't have the intellectual freedom to make or recognize good arguments are perhaps the most deluded people on the planet.
    Your post suggests that you haven't yet grasped the distinction between the ability to make decisions - which nobody denies - and the incoherent notion of free will.

    The brain makes decisions based on neural architecture/capacity, information input and sets of criteria developed through experience/memory. A simple failure of memory function and its all over.
    To MAKE a decision requires the freedom to make it.

    To have an educated opinion requires the freedom to choose between competing ideas.

    You simply deny the freedom you have.

    You are an absurd creature claiming you have the proper opinions but did not have the intellectual freedom to arrive at those opinions or the intellectual freedom to decide if the ideas are good.

    Your absurd charade is quite funny.

  2. Top | #212
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    People that claim they have no freedom are saying they have chosen none of the ideas they believe. They have no freedom to choose.

    They just spew ideas because they are forced to do it by a brain that is forcing everything.

    Those that claim they have no freedom are blind to the absurdity inherent in the claim.

    They have no clue what "no freedom" means. They don't comprehend the consequence of the claim.

    Because they have had the freedom to choose which ideas to accept their whole life.

    They freely chose to believe they have no freedom proving they do have freedom.

    If they did not freely choose to believe they have no freedom then the opinion is meaningless.

    Any opinion not freely chosen is meaningless.

    The computer that randomly says you are brilliant when you hit a button is not expressing a meaningful opinion.

  3. Top | #213
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    For a scientific study to be valid several things must be present.

    The researchers must have the freedom to choose the topic of research.

    They must have the freedom to create a research design that will address the topic.

    They must have the freedom to make accurate measurements.

    They must have the freedom to make valid conclusions.

    No freedom = No science.

  4. Top | #214
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    To MAKE a decision requires the freedom to make it.
    To make a decision requires a mechanism capable of acquiring and processing information - in this instance the neural architecture of a brain - according to a given set of criteria.....without which there is no decision making capability.

    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Your absurd charade is quite funny.
    You don't have a clue abut the subject matter. You dismiss the work of qualified researchers in the field in favour of fringe philosophy.

  5. Top | #215
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    It is a brain about which we're talking. It is composed of trillions of biological switches. So we are making decisions all the time. The analogy that comes to mind is a computer. It is designed to make decisions through use of electronic switches. No will there.

    I will accept the notion of will, consciousness, and self as biologically designed processes which function to keep the dauber of a person up in the face of it being in a world running several seconds ahead.

    It's impossible to make a choices about states that now exist when only information about the past has been obtained upon which to make those decisions about behaving in the world now. So will, choice, consciousness, can be no more than historical functions. Thus seen they cannot be freely made nor can they be currently applicable.

    Humans clearly aren't in control. The choices they make cannot be freely made because the ones they make can only be about the past.

    As I pointed out a long time ago a human's reaction to a bear crashing toward her through the forest is delayed for about half a second before she can begin to analyze it.

    We know that nature provides for the quickest responses possible via natural selection. We have measured these times, We accommodated for them in sport for example with reaction time corrections.

    You can't post we have choice when you know that we are acting in response to the past.

    All that is available when its biologically informed decisions execute responses are made enter in to a world that that has moved on. All it can do is presume the state of the world continues to remain the same as when the information it has arrived.

    If there is a conscious executive function it is operating in a nether world.

    Apparently evolution had responded to provide mechanisms which prop up hope in the form of illusions. This serves one to be confident about one's ability to control things now using information already past.

    However with respect to operating among humans and other life we are adequately equipped to react to with them in a shared imaginary present. Our acts are seen by other beings as being current and their acts are seen by us as current as well. So with respect to behaving with living things we can say we are in control and current. We aren't. We think we are.

    Fiction of course, but it's here where we, from armchairs, discuss choice consciousness, and self.

    In the material world there is no space nor set material of laws of human nature linked to a real t = 0.

  6. Top | #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    To MAKE a decision requires the freedom to make it.
    To make a decision requires a mechanism capable of acquiring and processing information - in this instance the neural architecture of a brain - according to a given set of criteria.....without which there is no decision making capability.
    That is a decision occurring.

    It is not MAKING a decision.

    And NOTHING you say has any meaning.

    You have no freedom.

    You have no control over the ideas you believe. You don't have the freedom to know if they are rational. Your brain could just be lying to you about that too.

    The pathetic fool that utters "I have no freedom" is a creature to ignore. They are so lost and deluded you will not get any sense from them. They are claiming they are not free to make conclusions about your arguments and do not control their arguments so there is no reason to waste your time listening to their arguments.

    If the fool that utters "I have no freedom" actually believed their nonsense they would quickly understand they couldn't trust a thought in their head.

  7. Top | #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    To MAKE a decision requires the freedom to make it.
    To make a decision requires a mechanism capable of acquiring and processing information - in this instance the neural architecture of a brain - according to a given set of criteria.....without which there is no decision making capability.
    That is a decision occurring.

    It is not MAKING a decision.

    And NOTHING you say has any meaning.

    You have no freedom.

    You have no control over the ideas you believe. You don't have the freedom to know if they are rational. Your brain could just be lying to you about that too.

    The pathetic fool that utters "I have no freedom" is a creature to ignore. They are so lost and deluded you will not get any sense from them. They are claiming they are not free to make conclusions about your arguments and do not control their arguments so there is no reason to waste your time listening to their arguments.

    If the fool that utters "I have no freedom" actually believed their nonsense they would quickly understand they couldn't trust a thought in their head.

    Where to start? Practically everything you say is skewed in favour of your own beliefs.

    Rather than deal with the actual mechanisms of decision making, neural networks acquiring and processing information, you wander off into irrelevant beliefs. Faith instead of facts.

    Decision-making is the function of a brain or a processor. In the case of biology, decisions that are made are determined by an interaction of neural architecture, information input and sets of criteria formed through experience: memory function. Animals make decisions based on their own needs, wants, fears according to the ability and capacity of their brain.

    It's not magic. It's not quantum consciousness, it is neural architecture and its function.

  8. Top | #218
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    Those that claim they do not have free will are very blind pathetic creatures.

    They don't have the slightest clue what it means to not have free will.

    They try to persuade proving they have a free will that wants to get some truth they have freely arrived at across.

    But if you don't have a free will you do not have the ability to know if something is true or false.
    Every thought that something is true is a forced thought not a thought freely arrived at.

    Knowing if something is true requires the freedom to make judgements and to follow conclusions.

    A conclusion that is not freely made is not worth anything.

    The creature that does not have freedom cannot freely come to conclusions. All conclusions about all things are forced upon them, as is every idea in their head.

    They spew stupidity to put it bluntly.

  9. Top | #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Those that claim they do not have free will are very blind pathetic creatures.

    They don't have the slightest clue what it means to not have free will.

    They try to persuade proving they have a free will that wants to get some truth they have freely arrived at across.

    But if you don't have a free will you do not have the ability to know if something is true or false.
    Every thought that something is true is a forced thought not a thought freely arrived at.

    Knowing if something is true requires the freedom to make judgements and to follow conclusions.

    A conclusion that is not freely made is not worth anything.

    The creature that does not have freedom cannot freely come to conclusions. All conclusions about all things are forced upon them, as is every idea in their head.

    They spew stupidity to put it bluntly.
    You still confuse the ability to make decisions - which nobody denies - with the poorly defined term: 'free will.' However, you can believe whatever happens to float your boat.

  10. Top | #220
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Ahem

    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Those that claim they do not have free will are very blind pathetic creatures.

    They don't have the slightest clue what it means to not have free will.

    They try to persuade proving they have a free will that wants to get some truth they have freely arrived at across.

    But if you don't have a free will you do not have the ability to know if something is true or false.
    Every thought that something is true is a forced thought not a thought freely arrived at.

    Knowing if something is true requires the freedom to make judgements and to follow conclusions.

    A conclusion that is not freely made is not worth anything.

    The creature that does not have freedom cannot freely come to conclusions. All conclusions about all things are forced upon them, as is every idea in their head.

    They spew stupidity to put it bluntly.
    First: Pardon me DBT for leaving out your correct rebuttal statement.

    Since 5/29 I've given up viewing Untermensche posts

    So I took your post which included his post to respond since he completely ignored, as usual, to provide evidence to dismiss my post without mentioning to whom he was responding.

    I post here what got his rant machine going.

    It's impossible to make a choices about states that now exist when only information about the past has been obtained upon which to make those decisions about behaving in the world now. So will, choice, consciousness, can be no more than historical functions. Thus seen they cannot be freely made nor can they be currently applicable.

    Humans clearly aren't in control. The choices they make cannot be freely made because the ones they make can only be about the past.

    As I pointed out a long time ago a human's reaction to a bear crashing toward her through the forest is delayed for about half a second before she can begin to analyze it.

    We know that nature provides for the quickest responses possible via natural selection. We have measured these times, We accommodated for them in sport for example with reaction time corrections.

    You can't post we have choice when you know that we are acting in response to the past in the present.
    Untermensche needs to explain how anything can be freely chosen when the world upon which it is based was the present is in the past before the choice was made.

    I've suggested a relative reality consisting of living beings around the decider who are privy to information at similar times to those of the one who chooses. Unfortunately such would be after t = 0 which determines the now of the material world IAW natural law.

    Untermensche has two problems:

    1. What are the the laws governed by human time outside the material world, the one determining the existence of individuals

    2. How can any action by a human which operates in the past be freely chosen.

    Think of it this way. The choice of the bare rock made by the man probably has moss on it by the time the man choses.

    That is clearly because ..."you do not have the ability to know if something is true or false"

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